Free Iraq
The US's occupation of Iraq will see to it that the Lion of Babylon rises again .. سنـُبعـَث ُ من جَديد ، وإلى ضَـيـرِِهِـم
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| Unrevealed Milestones in the Iraqi National Nuclear Program: 1981-1991 | معالم وأحداث غير مكشوفة في البرنامج النووي الوطني العراقي 1981-1991 | 
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Tuesday, March 08, 2005
"Facing these daily atrocities, what do we expect an oppressed Iraqi to do?"
"Behind the facade of post-election political process, despite Tony Blair's desire to move on and George Bush's attempt to mend fences with Europe, in Iraq the atrocities continue to mount. Some, like the Hilla attack, are Zarqawi-style, with hundreds dead and wounded. Others are more mundane and sustained, like US warplanes bombing suspect houses in Ramadi, Hit, or Mosul, roadblock killings in Najaff, or post-curfew hunting by snipers in Sammara.
Despite all the rhetoric about "building a new democracy", daily life for most Iraqis is still a struggle for survival, with human rights abuses engulfing them. A typical Iraqi day begins with the struggle to get the basics: petrol, a cylinder of gas, fresh water, food and medication. It ends with a sigh of relief: Alhamdu ilah (thanks, God), for surviving death threats, violent attacks, kidnappings and killings.
For ordinary Iraqis, simply venturing into the streets brings the possibility of attack. Most killings go unreported. With no names, no faces, no identities, they cease to be human beings. They are "the enemy", "collateral damage" or, at best, statistics to argue about. (my italics)
In March 1989, Iraqi and Arab writers contributed to a book called Halabja, to condemn Saddam Hussein's regime for using chemical weapons against civilians in the city. At the time of the attack, Saddam was still the darling of the west.
In my introduction to the book, I wrote: "They say 5,000 people died. Others say 10,000 died. We say: in Halabja, within minutes, Rasul, Piroz, Ahmed, Khadija, Sardar, Amina _ have been killed. In Halabja, eyes no longer shine."
Now, we continue to watch life draining out of our country. Almost two years on from the beginning of the occupation, eyes no longer shine in many Iraqi cities. Thousands of civilians have been killed. One of them was Hazim Ahmed al-Obaidi. On January 16, Hazim, 57, left his house to go to work. He had a cash-and-carry shop, for fruit, vegetables and dates, in Mosul.
Before leaving, his wife reminded him to get some paraffin, if possible. He laughed loudly, hugging his four-year-old daughter, Manar, who wanted to go with him. He waved goodbye to his mother and his children: Dalal, 17, Shahad, 12, Maha, 9, and Zayed, 11.
Hazim never came back. He was shot, according to eyewitnesses, by a US patrol. His car was burned and, because of the curfew, his family had to wait until the next morning to start looking for him. Two days later, his charred and barely recognisable body was found. To the bewilderment of his family, US troops stopped them after they had collected the body, uncovered it and took photos.
Hazim was not a "terrorist"or a "Saddamist". He was a cheerful family man who was wounded in the Iran-Iraq war, and survived the harshness of the sanctions years by selling fruit and vegetables. Who is going to investigate his killing, compensate his family, and help his children to make sense of their tragedy? Will it be the Iraqi interim government, or the US-led occupation? Judging by the human rights records of both, the answer is that neither of them will investigate Hazim's killing, or any other. Human rights under occupation have proved to be a mirage similar to WMD. (my italics)
In his message broadcast to Iraqis last April, Tony Blair said: "Our aim is to help alleviate immediate humanitarian suffering, and to move as soon as possible to an interim authority run by Iraqis ... which represents human rights and the rule of law and spends Iraq's wealth not on palaces and WMD, but on you and the services you need." So much for illusions.
Charred bodies, the massacre of children in a wedding party, the killing of detainees, shootings at demonstrations, kidnappings of civilians - these are the features of that "better future".
Occupation troops are responsible for an increasing list of abuses, including the torture and killing of Iraqi prisoners. Seeing a corpse photographed with grinning US soldiers at Abu Ghraib shocked the moral sensibility of people around the world. Taking snaps of Hazim's charred body has shaken his family's belief in the humanity of the Americans, as well as the British and the Iraqis working with them.
Following the US and British governments' line on human rights, members of the interim Iraqi government have sought to play down the violations committed by occupation troops - either by recalling that similar abuses were committed under Saddam's regime or by labelling the victims as terrorists.
Under Iyad Allawi's regime, the newly trained Iraqi police are torturing detainees. Last week, leaders of the Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution in Iraq accused the police of torturing and killing three of their members because of their political and religious affiliations, and demanded an immediate investigation.
Facing these daily atrocities, what do we expect an oppressed Iraqi to do?
So much for illusions by Haifa Zangana, March 7, 2005 ( Haifa Zangana is an Iraqi-born novelist and former prisoner of the Saddam regime)
"I now live with no more certainties. I find myself deeply weak. I failed in my belief. I had always claimed there was need to go tell about that dirty war. And I had to decide whether to stay in the hotel or going out and chance being abducted because of my work. "We don't want anyone any more," the abductors told me. But I wanted to tell about the bloodbath in Falluja through the refugees' tales. And that morning the refugees and some of their "leaders" didn't listen to me. I had in front of me the evidence of what the Iraqi society has become with the war and they threw their truth in my face: "We don't want anyone. Why don't you stay home? What such interview can be useful for?". The worst collateral damage, the war killing communication, was falling on me. On me, who had risked it all, challenging the Italian government that didn't want reporters gong to Iraq, and the Americans who don't want our work that gives witness to what that country has really turned into with the war, despite what they call elections.Now I wonder. Is their refusal a failure?"
My truth (La mia verità), by Giuliana Sgrena March 6, 2005
"When an Italian journalist was driven up Baghdad's airport road toward an American military checkpoint on Friday night, she was driving into a situation fraught with hazards thousands of Iraqis face every day.
The journalist, Giuliana Sgrena, 56, ran into fierce American gunfire that left her with a shrapnel wound to her shoulder and killed the Italian intelligence agent sitting beside her in the rear seat. She had been released only 35 minutes earlier by Iraqi kidnappers who had held her hostage for a month, and the car carrying them to the airport was driving in pitch dark.
But the conditions for the journey, up a road that is considered the most dangerous in Iraq, were broadly the same as those facing all civilian drivers approaching American checkpoints or convoys. American soldiers operate under rules of engagement that give them authority to open fire whenever they have reason to believe that they or others in their unit may be at risk of suicide bombings or other insurgent attacks.
Next to the scandal of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, no other aspect of the American military presence in Iraq has caused such widespread dismay and anger among Iraqis, judging by their frequent outbursts on the subject. Daily reports compiled by Western security companies chronicle many incidents in which Iraqis with no apparent connection to the insurgency are killed or wounded by American troops who have opened fire on suspicion that the Iraqis were engaged in a terrorist attack.
Accounts of the incidents vary widely, as they have in the incident involving Ms. Sgrena, with the American command emphasizing aspects of drivers' behavior that aroused legitimate concerns, and survivors saying, often, that they were doing nothing threatening. Since few of the incidents are ever formally investigated, many families are left with unresolved feelings of bitterness. "
U.S. Checkpoints Raise Ire in Iraq March 7, 2005
In the meantime:
""We have 10,000 of them in detention," joint chief of staff General Babakir Zebari told AFP on Sunday without providing details.
According to US military figures, as of early January more than 7,000 detainees were being held in US-run prisons in Iraq including the notorious Abu Ghraib facility in Baghdad and Camp Bucca in the south.
But this number rose as security was stepped up in the runup to the January 30 elections with the arrest of hundreds of suspects throughout the country.
Iraq's top general says 10,000 insurgents in detention March 6, 2005
and also American Jails in Iraq Bursting With Detainees March 4, 2005
How will the occupier alter these detainees' 'hearts and minds', after having stuffed them with American fried (rather burned) 'Freedom' and 'Democracy'?
With the increasing daily spread of 'insurgency' over the past two years, the occupier better build many more prisons, quickly, and bring in thousands of body bags.
If the occupier intends to stay.
What was it that they came for in the first place and obliterated Fallujah in the west, Najjaf (and parts of its cemetry that holds the remains of millions of Shiites) in the south and Talafar in the north; and are now currently savagely attacking (no news media allowed) Ramadi, Hit, Al-Husaiba, Haditha, Qaim, Samara (again), etc... to the west of Iraq ?
These children's children will still be fighting the occupier, if they are still around ....
Comments:
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Dr. Imad, the first article was awesome.
OC, i guess the fact that THAT was posted by a former PRISONER of Saddam means nothing. Surely the person that wrote that was not a REAL Iraqi? Surely, Dr. Imad, because he now resides in Canada is not a real Iraqi? But I bet you consider all those exiles that voted from whatever country THEY stay in Iraqi to the bone.
OC, whose favorite word is cognitive, says in one breath "Iraqis are tough enough to get through this" yet in the very next breath says "Do you think the Iraqis should have been left to endure many more generatons of torture, rape, and death under Saddam?" First, they tough, then, they are helpless little people in need of our help, (since we helped them out so much in the past, especially with those sanctions and in that last war).
Bishop's Alternative: GET OUT OF EVERYBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS. Period. It is how America got great. We didn't even want to join WWII (and stop the evil Nazis) if yall remember - Japan had to bomb us into it! Bishop would have ended the sanctions, and let the Iraqis fend for themselves. Because Iraq is not bishop's business. Bishop has a plan called "The Roadmap to Peace - for terror" (as opposed to the War on Terror) but you, OC, are definitely not ready for that yet. I must say, though, that your plan of "huge amounts of pressure" (and no doubt the large quantity of bombs that accompany that) is scary to me. I also love that you are pro-war AND you acknowledge that Iraq had NO WMDs. So you concede we acted illegally, and NOT in self-defense?
As far as human nature is concerned, OC, focus all your cognitive abilities onto the 3 pictures at the bottom of this post. The future that your humantarian war will bring is unavoidable - biologically and karmatically. (You know, like nature/nurture? Oh, forget it.)
TE, Nice list. How many of the things on that list were NOT accounted for on that 12,000 page list? And how many of those not on the list were found in Iraq IN THIS WAR? Take that answer and ask yourself if we should have killed 100,000 people for that.
MJ, no comment. You can do better than that, man. I know it.
OC, i guess the fact that THAT was posted by a former PRISONER of Saddam means nothing. Surely the person that wrote that was not a REAL Iraqi? Surely, Dr. Imad, because he now resides in Canada is not a real Iraqi? But I bet you consider all those exiles that voted from whatever country THEY stay in Iraqi to the bone.
OC, whose favorite word is cognitive, says in one breath "Iraqis are tough enough to get through this" yet in the very next breath says "Do you think the Iraqis should have been left to endure many more generatons of torture, rape, and death under Saddam?" First, they tough, then, they are helpless little people in need of our help, (since we helped them out so much in the past, especially with those sanctions and in that last war).
Bishop's Alternative: GET OUT OF EVERYBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS. Period. It is how America got great. We didn't even want to join WWII (and stop the evil Nazis) if yall remember - Japan had to bomb us into it! Bishop would have ended the sanctions, and let the Iraqis fend for themselves. Because Iraq is not bishop's business. Bishop has a plan called "The Roadmap to Peace - for terror" (as opposed to the War on Terror) but you, OC, are definitely not ready for that yet. I must say, though, that your plan of "huge amounts of pressure" (and no doubt the large quantity of bombs that accompany that) is scary to me. I also love that you are pro-war AND you acknowledge that Iraq had NO WMDs. So you concede we acted illegally, and NOT in self-defense?
As far as human nature is concerned, OC, focus all your cognitive abilities onto the 3 pictures at the bottom of this post. The future that your humantarian war will bring is unavoidable - biologically and karmatically. (You know, like nature/nurture? Oh, forget it.)
TE, Nice list. How many of the things on that list were NOT accounted for on that 12,000 page list? And how many of those not on the list were found in Iraq IN THIS WAR? Take that answer and ask yourself if we should have killed 100,000 people for that.
MJ, no comment. You can do better than that, man. I know it.
That shows that the occupying forces act in the same way as the securities forces of Saddam. Only the difference it is that all the world knew that Saddam was a dictator.
Murders, arbitrary arrest, rape, tortures, unemployment, the lack of water and foods are the daily batch of ordinary Iraqi.
This War replaced the plague by cholera but what is worse it is than that is done in the name of the "democracy" and of “the humans right".
Beautiful image, nobody can not be suprise now that the oppressed people wich never known democratic culture prefer to take refuge in the extreme of religion and not to be in real democratic combat respecting the humans right ans especially the women’s rights. The whole world had prevented that to make the war in Iraq was to open a Pandora box who was likely to feed the terrorist religious extremists (look at the results of the elections Iraqi and the number of dead).
The occupying forces are the shame of the democracies, they are new Saddam of Iraq.
Murders, arbitrary arrest, rape, tortures, unemployment, the lack of water and foods are the daily batch of ordinary Iraqi.
This War replaced the plague by cholera but what is worse it is than that is done in the name of the "democracy" and of “the humans right".
Beautiful image, nobody can not be suprise now that the oppressed people wich never known democratic culture prefer to take refuge in the extreme of religion and not to be in real democratic combat respecting the humans right ans especially the women’s rights. The whole world had prevented that to make the war in Iraq was to open a Pandora box who was likely to feed the terrorist religious extremists (look at the results of the elections Iraqi and the number of dead).
The occupying forces are the shame of the democracies, they are new Saddam of Iraq.
Bishop, why are you so hysterical today? Did you have a bad night? What is bothering you today? Global warming? National debt? Acid rain? The price of oil?
Clearly, you can't accept the fact that people have alternative opinions to your own. I am not pro-war, I am not anti-war, I am The Devils Advocate - here and now. You love it, admit it.
Isn't it clear to you that the western peoples are not anti-war enough to vote OUT Bush and Blair? You, my hysterical friend, are in the minority.
I believe that you personally fail to see the positive aspects of the new Iraq, purely out of hatred and sour grapes. It is not objectivity that drives your thought processes, its is blinkered hatred and a lack of calm, sensible thinking.
Me? I am glad that my Iraqi friends can now go home.....return without fear that they are about to be burned and buried by the al-Tikiriti posse. I am glad that their areas are now largely peaceful and that they are now represented by their Shia and Kurdish reps in government. I am glad that the future holds greater things for Iraq, long term. I am glad that Saddam has gone. I am glad he will be hanged. I am glad that Gulf War 1 stopped Saddam from getting his hands on nuclear weapons. I am glad that his morally bankrupt scientists are all now EXILED with nothing to do but write self-embellishing books.
If Mossad allows these men to live, maybe they'll get jobs cleaning toilets or picking up litter, not that they'll need cash after ripping off the Iraqi people.
I am sad that the reasons for war were a lie and that neoconservatives are on a roll. I am sad that Douglas Feith got his way. I am sad that I was lied to by my own PM and intelligence services. I am sad that small parts of Iraq are still engaged in a guerilla war. I am sad that the Iraqi civilians are being maimed and killed, largely by insurgent activities, but also by trigger happy American soldiers. I am sad that UN sanction killed millions of innocent civilians. I am sad that Saddam's government continued to spend billions on palaces and villas whilst their own people were dying.
Overall, I feel that the picture is much better than it was 10 years ago. I have only my close personal contacts in Shia and Kurdish areas to go on. In a decade, we'll see the Iraqis living in an Iraq that is run by themselves. As 1940's Europe recovered, so will the Iraq.
Clearly, you can't accept the fact that people have alternative opinions to your own. I am not pro-war, I am not anti-war, I am The Devils Advocate - here and now. You love it, admit it.
Isn't it clear to you that the western peoples are not anti-war enough to vote OUT Bush and Blair? You, my hysterical friend, are in the minority.
I believe that you personally fail to see the positive aspects of the new Iraq, purely out of hatred and sour grapes. It is not objectivity that drives your thought processes, its is blinkered hatred and a lack of calm, sensible thinking.
Me? I am glad that my Iraqi friends can now go home.....return without fear that they are about to be burned and buried by the al-Tikiriti posse. I am glad that their areas are now largely peaceful and that they are now represented by their Shia and Kurdish reps in government. I am glad that the future holds greater things for Iraq, long term. I am glad that Saddam has gone. I am glad he will be hanged. I am glad that Gulf War 1 stopped Saddam from getting his hands on nuclear weapons. I am glad that his morally bankrupt scientists are all now EXILED with nothing to do but write self-embellishing books.
If Mossad allows these men to live, maybe they'll get jobs cleaning toilets or picking up litter, not that they'll need cash after ripping off the Iraqi people.
I am sad that the reasons for war were a lie and that neoconservatives are on a roll. I am sad that Douglas Feith got his way. I am sad that I was lied to by my own PM and intelligence services. I am sad that small parts of Iraq are still engaged in a guerilla war. I am sad that the Iraqi civilians are being maimed and killed, largely by insurgent activities, but also by trigger happy American soldiers. I am sad that UN sanction killed millions of innocent civilians. I am sad that Saddam's government continued to spend billions on palaces and villas whilst their own people were dying.
Overall, I feel that the picture is much better than it was 10 years ago. I have only my close personal contacts in Shia and Kurdish areas to go on. In a decade, we'll see the Iraqis living in an Iraq that is run by themselves. As 1940's Europe recovered, so will the Iraq.
I'm pro-war and I am proud of it - I am bloody glad that we went into Iraq when we did. I think we should have done it 30 years ago before Saddam killed several million people with his psychopathic aggression. With military interventions there are often many good things and benefits to spring up, and any anti-war demonstrator who knows his/her military history has to understand and appreciate that. Take the bombing of Pearl Harbor! What happened? It led to the expulsion of Western imperial powers from the Asian continent, literally sparing millions of lives. Of course there will be great things to come out of the Iraq invasion. Who can say that they are disappointed to see Saddam Hussayn and his aides finally face justice?
Who can say that they are disappointed that Hussayn never got his nuclear capability or that a new representative government is now in power? No-one in their right mind would be disappointed at that. Another good thing? Arab democracy is now in its springtime. It may be a spring chicken but regimes that are rotten to the core, such as the Syrian had best watch out. It cannot be doubted that Libya's cooperation and the new elections throughout the rest of the Arab countries are a direct result of the Iraq invasion. Even the people in the Ukraine took inspiration and took the bull by the horns.
There is a refreshing wave swallowing up the middle east now. Those old dicatators had best watch out! Power to the people! Bush and Blair have their faults but this is their good by-products!
Who can say that they are disappointed that Hussayn never got his nuclear capability or that a new representative government is now in power? No-one in their right mind would be disappointed at that. Another good thing? Arab democracy is now in its springtime. It may be a spring chicken but regimes that are rotten to the core, such as the Syrian had best watch out. It cannot be doubted that Libya's cooperation and the new elections throughout the rest of the Arab countries are a direct result of the Iraq invasion. Even the people in the Ukraine took inspiration and took the bull by the horns.
There is a refreshing wave swallowing up the middle east now. Those old dicatators had best watch out! Power to the people! Bush and Blair have their faults but this is their good by-products!
Salutations, I think those of you who are anti-invasion should listen to what many, many, many Iraqis have to say, that is, those who have suffered horrific fates under the old regime. These people are interviewed in the newly released "The Murderous Regime of Saddam Hussein".
Go to http://www.theiraqitruthproject.com
This new film is actually made by Iraqis, and reveals the putried atrocities committed by Saddam and Co. through first hand accounts. It shows that removing him from power was utterly, completely, 100% necessary. It will convince you, even if you are anti, that something had to be done to stop it all. The UN would not help, it punished Iraqi people more with its sanctions. The Arab nations would not help their brothers in distress either. No-one was willing to intervene to stop decades more of genocide.
The footage in this documentary is actually going to be used as evidence against "Chemical Ali' and Saddam Hussein in their trials. Guaranteed, Iraqis want freedom from saddam and justice. The film has helped to raise the morale of soldiers in Iraq, and their families, by showing the gratuitous barbarity of the regime they have eliminated. Thousands of copies have been sent to the troops to let them know that many in the west, and in Iraq, do support their efforts.
There are many honourable coalition men and women doing their best in Iraq to make it a better place after they have left. Some have given their lives and souls and quite frankly, the people on this site who compare them with Saddam not only make me want to puke, they also remind me of just how naive, silly and hollow they are.
Whether they like it or not, many Iraqi people are grateful for a new start and have kissed the men and women who came to their rescue in 2003. Despite the media reports that report Iraq as a 100% mess, one can see, when one looks at the whole picture, that much of Iraq is now at peace and making a fresh start.
Go to http://www.theiraqitruthproject.com
This new film is actually made by Iraqis, and reveals the putried atrocities committed by Saddam and Co. through first hand accounts. It shows that removing him from power was utterly, completely, 100% necessary. It will convince you, even if you are anti, that something had to be done to stop it all. The UN would not help, it punished Iraqi people more with its sanctions. The Arab nations would not help their brothers in distress either. No-one was willing to intervene to stop decades more of genocide.
The footage in this documentary is actually going to be used as evidence against "Chemical Ali' and Saddam Hussein in their trials. Guaranteed, Iraqis want freedom from saddam and justice. The film has helped to raise the morale of soldiers in Iraq, and their families, by showing the gratuitous barbarity of the regime they have eliminated. Thousands of copies have been sent to the troops to let them know that many in the west, and in Iraq, do support their efforts.
There are many honourable coalition men and women doing their best in Iraq to make it a better place after they have left. Some have given their lives and souls and quite frankly, the people on this site who compare them with Saddam not only make me want to puke, they also remind me of just how naive, silly and hollow they are.
Whether they like it or not, many Iraqi people are grateful for a new start and have kissed the men and women who came to their rescue in 2003. Despite the media reports that report Iraq as a 100% mess, one can see, when one looks at the whole picture, that much of Iraq is now at peace and making a fresh start.
I knew we could have a grown-up conversation...
OC, I don't know where you get the "hysterical" thing from? When you read what I write, picture me smiling when I'm writing it. No hysteria here, bro. I'm secure in my postion....
Regarding some of the things you said: I do agree with you on one thing - I don't see the positive. I admit it. I also don't see how you can say Iraqis "can return to Iraq without fear" when tens of people are getting killed everyday, and the people are still under occupation. Or how about the new fear that Riverbend is being forced to endure? She is scared to death that the leaders of new Iraq will make her life more like Iranian women, not more like Western women......And, OC, just who am I supposed to be hating so bad? YOU are always the one bringing up hatred. YOU do that often. That is coming from YOU, not me......And 10 years from now those little 10 year old kids in those pictures above will be twenty. What about them? Yall dont' want to discuss ALL the kids of the 100,000 killed. Yall see what 9-11 did to the minds of many Americans (like yallselves)? That was only 3,000 people!
TE, As far the "expelling Western powers from SE Asia," if that is what WWII did, then what do you call killing millions and millions and millions of people in Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, the Philippines, etc.? There is still one Western power in almost all of those countries. Yall just refuse to see it.......As far as Saddam's justice, I just hope they try him PUBLICALLY. It's funny, when it came to the Nazis we wanted to show the world what those evil men did. With Saddam it seems it's the opposite. What do WE have to hide? Who gave him that gas he used (or at least the know how to make it)? Who gave him the money and guns and support to invade Iran? Who was photographed shaking his hand AFTER he gassed the Kurds?
SC, decades of genocide? Come on, baby. I don't think Saddam partook in genocide at all. Genocide is trying to wipe out an ENTIRE ethnic group. Saddam wasn't trying to systematically round up and kill ALL Kurds. Saddam was against ANYONE who didn't succomb to him - and it didn't matter who you were, EVEN IF YOU WERE IN HIS OWN FAMILY!...... And i say this with two cousins still in Iraq right now. Let's not go the troop route. Tell me, why exactly is the troops' moral so bad that it needs a boost?
I don't care about democracy and freedom for others. That's not my place. I care about if Iraq or Lebanon or Iran could harm Americans. And it is obvious that none of the can, or that none of them could before the war. I am concerned that we are pissing off some people of these countries we are "helping" so much (even just 1% of the population) that THOSE few people will stop at nothing to attack America.
OC, I don't know where you get the "hysterical" thing from? When you read what I write, picture me smiling when I'm writing it. No hysteria here, bro. I'm secure in my postion....
Regarding some of the things you said: I do agree with you on one thing - I don't see the positive. I admit it. I also don't see how you can say Iraqis "can return to Iraq without fear" when tens of people are getting killed everyday, and the people are still under occupation. Or how about the new fear that Riverbend is being forced to endure? She is scared to death that the leaders of new Iraq will make her life more like Iranian women, not more like Western women......And, OC, just who am I supposed to be hating so bad? YOU are always the one bringing up hatred. YOU do that often. That is coming from YOU, not me......And 10 years from now those little 10 year old kids in those pictures above will be twenty. What about them? Yall dont' want to discuss ALL the kids of the 100,000 killed. Yall see what 9-11 did to the minds of many Americans (like yallselves)? That was only 3,000 people!
TE, As far the "expelling Western powers from SE Asia," if that is what WWII did, then what do you call killing millions and millions and millions of people in Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, the Philippines, etc.? There is still one Western power in almost all of those countries. Yall just refuse to see it.......As far as Saddam's justice, I just hope they try him PUBLICALLY. It's funny, when it came to the Nazis we wanted to show the world what those evil men did. With Saddam it seems it's the opposite. What do WE have to hide? Who gave him that gas he used (or at least the know how to make it)? Who gave him the money and guns and support to invade Iran? Who was photographed shaking his hand AFTER he gassed the Kurds?
SC, decades of genocide? Come on, baby. I don't think Saddam partook in genocide at all. Genocide is trying to wipe out an ENTIRE ethnic group. Saddam wasn't trying to systematically round up and kill ALL Kurds. Saddam was against ANYONE who didn't succomb to him - and it didn't matter who you were, EVEN IF YOU WERE IN HIS OWN FAMILY!...... And i say this with two cousins still in Iraq right now. Let's not go the troop route. Tell me, why exactly is the troops' moral so bad that it needs a boost?
I don't care about democracy and freedom for others. That's not my place. I care about if Iraq or Lebanon or Iran could harm Americans. And it is obvious that none of the can, or that none of them could before the war. I am concerned that we are pissing off some people of these countries we are "helping" so much (even just 1% of the population) that THOSE few people will stop at nothing to attack America.
Thank you Oliver Cromwell for pointing out the fact that genocide was committed in Iraq in the Anfal. Iraqi documents, now in the hands of the west, demonstrate how the Iraqi state organised the Kurdish genocide. Even the the method of executing the Kurds by firing squads was extremely similar to that of the mobile killing units, in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe in the 40's. Saddam's regime always wanted to create an orderly, completely controlled and docile society; it was one of their main policies. The Kurds were the main challenge to this policy. The Kurds were seen as the bad apples disturbing Saddam's vision of an Arab Iraq.
So he went ahead with his plans to seek and destroy and put his machine of murder into action. Those areas cleared of Kurds were labelled as "purified", how charming.
The anti-war people on this site have absolutely no idea of what went on with respect to genocide in Iraq. They love to listen to the sound of their own voices whilst blocking out the tortured screams of the Kurds and Shia muslims. They disagreed with the war, and yet have not suggested one alternative to save the Iraqis from Saddam and his murderous friends and scientists.
They would rather stand by, and let Saddam destroy his people, and all so they can stand there with their 'peace candles', pretending to be righteous.
That's what I like about antiwar campaigners; their downfall is they had no alternative to stopping the death and destruction created by Saddam. At least Bush did something. His answer hasn't been perfect, but like Ronnie Reagan in the 1980's, who was hated and doubted over his approach to the Soviets, he'll be proved right. As the Berlin Wall came down as a result of Ronnie's actions, and freed the East German people, so Bush will have his day, despite all the doubters. Democracy is spreading throughout the middle east like wild fire - a welcomed domino effect.
On the Iraqi Interim Government's website it says this:
"Terrorist activity will not be tolerated anywhere in the country. The longer terrorists continue to destroy Iraqi lives, the longer the multi-national forces will remain. The government is determined to bring peace and stability to every corner of Iraq"
Even Iraqs own government recognises the aims of the terrorist and the reason for the prolonged coalition stay. Terrorists will end up like Saddam, eventually bowled into the pits of imprisonment and awaiting execution.
The wheels of democracy are turning swiftly and you'll have to accept it.
So he went ahead with his plans to seek and destroy and put his machine of murder into action. Those areas cleared of Kurds were labelled as "purified", how charming.
The anti-war people on this site have absolutely no idea of what went on with respect to genocide in Iraq. They love to listen to the sound of their own voices whilst blocking out the tortured screams of the Kurds and Shia muslims. They disagreed with the war, and yet have not suggested one alternative to save the Iraqis from Saddam and his murderous friends and scientists.
They would rather stand by, and let Saddam destroy his people, and all so they can stand there with their 'peace candles', pretending to be righteous.
That's what I like about antiwar campaigners; their downfall is they had no alternative to stopping the death and destruction created by Saddam. At least Bush did something. His answer hasn't been perfect, but like Ronnie Reagan in the 1980's, who was hated and doubted over his approach to the Soviets, he'll be proved right. As the Berlin Wall came down as a result of Ronnie's actions, and freed the East German people, so Bush will have his day, despite all the doubters. Democracy is spreading throughout the middle east like wild fire - a welcomed domino effect.
On the Iraqi Interim Government's website it says this:
"Terrorist activity will not be tolerated anywhere in the country. The longer terrorists continue to destroy Iraqi lives, the longer the multi-national forces will remain. The government is determined to bring peace and stability to every corner of Iraq"
Even Iraqs own government recognises the aims of the terrorist and the reason for the prolonged coalition stay. Terrorists will end up like Saddam, eventually bowled into the pits of imprisonment and awaiting execution.
The wheels of democracy are turning swiftly and you'll have to accept it.
Quote Bishop for comic relief...
"I don't think Saddam partook in genocide at all. Genocide is trying to wipe out an ENTIRE ethnic group. Saddam wasn't trying to systematically round up and kill ALL Kurds"
What a complete fool Bishop has just made of him/herself. I almost fell off my chair when I read his latest foolish nonsense! I think his mental acumen is well below par! Saddam wanted to eliminate the Kurds (a non-Arab ethnic group in Iraq) to create a united all-Arab Iraq. He was killing them all, destroying their villages and stealing every bit of their property....in other words, he tried to wipe them from existance...but that's not genocide to Bishop....someone get me a handkerchief for my tears of laughter!
"I don't think Saddam partook in genocide at all. Genocide is trying to wipe out an ENTIRE ethnic group. Saddam wasn't trying to systematically round up and kill ALL Kurds"
What a complete fool Bishop has just made of him/herself. I almost fell off my chair when I read his latest foolish nonsense! I think his mental acumen is well below par! Saddam wanted to eliminate the Kurds (a non-Arab ethnic group in Iraq) to create a united all-Arab Iraq. He was killing them all, destroying their villages and stealing every bit of their property....in other words, he tried to wipe them from existance...but that's not genocide to Bishop....someone get me a handkerchief for my tears of laughter!
I am glad to finally put a smile on yall faces, too.
I point yall to: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
regarding all of this stuff. It is the National Security Archives. (so surely it is all bullsh!t) It clears a lot of this up, though.
Yall seem to be unanimous on the genocide issue. What does that say of those doing businnes with Saddam at the time and after if he committed genocide? Notice the date that DAILY chemical attacks were reported and the date in which Rumsfeld (one of yall heros, I'm sure) shook hands with you-know-who. Notice how, after that handshake after the gassing, America gave Saddam a $400 million credit line. (I wonder what IN THE WORLD he could have done with THAT - during a war?)
OC, listed about ten things that Saddam did as examples of genocide. Save for the first item on the list, Israel is doing every single one of them things to the Palestinians right now ON A DAILY BASIS - and have been for fifty years now. They killed 807 Pal. last year (compared to 100+ Israelis killed by Pal.) and bulldozed the houses of 11,000+ people. Are they committing GENOCIDE? Where is your selective outrage? Where are your demands for freedom for the Palestinian people?
TE, even though both our governments have publically admitted that Iraq did not have WMDs, I am going to have to go with YOU instead. Iraq had WMDs. Normally, i wouldn't just trust someone merely because they say it. But since it's you, and you've thouroughly handed me my hat in this debate - now, I believe Iraq had 'em. (And even though i am not of the holy variety - I'm sure Jesus would be all about THIS war, killing 100,000 people, etc. THIS war is diferent from the many others we have perpitrated, right?)
And I ain't saying that Saddam didn't commit crimes against humanity. I am simply saying that i don't believe he committed genocide because, again, Saddam hated any and everybody who opposed him. It's about semantics, and the importance of using languange correctly. (like learning to define carpet-bombing Fallujah, or bulldozing someone's house to take their land, or using napalm on civilain populations - as terror also) Regarding Saddam, it didn't matter what group you were from if you didn't cater to his wishes. And that is not genocide. Sorry. Even if he was harsher on the Kurds than others. Saddam was an equal opportunity hater/killer/insert-your-own-adjective.
And i can't help but notice none of yall want to discuss the pictures of those little kids, the ones above where some are blind-folded, or behind that razor-wire, or learning how to shoot a bazzoka. Come on, yall. What of them? That's the reason we are there (now), right?
I point yall to: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
regarding all of this stuff. It is the National Security Archives. (so surely it is all bullsh!t) It clears a lot of this up, though.
Yall seem to be unanimous on the genocide issue. What does that say of those doing businnes with Saddam at the time and after if he committed genocide? Notice the date that DAILY chemical attacks were reported and the date in which Rumsfeld (one of yall heros, I'm sure) shook hands with you-know-who. Notice how, after that handshake after the gassing, America gave Saddam a $400 million credit line. (I wonder what IN THE WORLD he could have done with THAT - during a war?)
OC, listed about ten things that Saddam did as examples of genocide. Save for the first item on the list, Israel is doing every single one of them things to the Palestinians right now ON A DAILY BASIS - and have been for fifty years now. They killed 807 Pal. last year (compared to 100+ Israelis killed by Pal.) and bulldozed the houses of 11,000+ people. Are they committing GENOCIDE? Where is your selective outrage? Where are your demands for freedom for the Palestinian people?
TE, even though both our governments have publically admitted that Iraq did not have WMDs, I am going to have to go with YOU instead. Iraq had WMDs. Normally, i wouldn't just trust someone merely because they say it. But since it's you, and you've thouroughly handed me my hat in this debate - now, I believe Iraq had 'em. (And even though i am not of the holy variety - I'm sure Jesus would be all about THIS war, killing 100,000 people, etc. THIS war is diferent from the many others we have perpitrated, right?)
And I ain't saying that Saddam didn't commit crimes against humanity. I am simply saying that i don't believe he committed genocide because, again, Saddam hated any and everybody who opposed him. It's about semantics, and the importance of using languange correctly. (like learning to define carpet-bombing Fallujah, or bulldozing someone's house to take their land, or using napalm on civilain populations - as terror also) Regarding Saddam, it didn't matter what group you were from if you didn't cater to his wishes. And that is not genocide. Sorry. Even if he was harsher on the Kurds than others. Saddam was an equal opportunity hater/killer/insert-your-own-adjective.
And i can't help but notice none of yall want to discuss the pictures of those little kids, the ones above where some are blind-folded, or behind that razor-wire, or learning how to shoot a bazzoka. Come on, yall. What of them? That's the reason we are there (now), right?
The definition of genocide in my dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language is almost the exact same definition as the one OC gives - except it leaves out the "whole or part of" part. Also, the Greek root of the word genocide means "race." Hence, my understanding of the word as the attempt to wipe out a whole race of people - completely, to extinction, forever off the face of the whole earth. As the Nazis did in invading country after coutry to do so to the Jews. Did Saddam ever invade Turkey? I don't know i am asking anyone who knows...
Bishop - Turkish Kurds are not confined to Turkey and hence, Saddam would not have to invade. Turkish Kurds were the victims too - anything Kurdish would do for Saddam. Turkey has had troops in northern Iraq for years to defend its own border against Turkish Kurds who have fought its government for the past 20 years.
Also, Saddam never even attempted invaded Turkey because there are only so many countries he could 'have a go at' in just over a decade. I personally think that Iran, Kuwait and Israel were enough - certainly for him - His adventures in other countries bankrupted him.
There is actual footage available of Chemical Ali detailing his plans for genocide and this is utterly mind-boggling. The eyewitness accounts of mass executions at Mahaweel camp, of prison torture in Kirkuk and of chemical bombings in Halabja are just plain horrific.
Saddam's uncle taught him that 3 things should not exist - Jews, Persians and flies. Looks like Saddam decided to add 'Kurds' to that little list too.
Also, Saddam never even attempted invaded Turkey because there are only so many countries he could 'have a go at' in just over a decade. I personally think that Iran, Kuwait and Israel were enough - certainly for him - His adventures in other countries bankrupted him.
There is actual footage available of Chemical Ali detailing his plans for genocide and this is utterly mind-boggling. The eyewitness accounts of mass executions at Mahaweel camp, of prison torture in Kirkuk and of chemical bombings in Halabja are just plain horrific.
Saddam's uncle taught him that 3 things should not exist - Jews, Persians and flies. Looks like Saddam decided to add 'Kurds' to that little list too.
Bishop said -
"And I ain't saying that Saddam didn't commit crimes against humanity. I am simply saying that i don't believe he committed genocide because, again, Saddam hated any and everybody who opposed him"
It obviously hasn't occurred to you that the same thing can be said of Adolf Hitler - he also hated anyone who opposed or even offended him. He killed political prisoners, suspected spies, physically and mentally disabled people and homosexuals 'en masse'.
That DOESN'T mean that he didn't commit genocide against the Jews - the same can be said of Saddam and the Kurds.
Documentation recovered in 1991 Gulf War revealed that the Anfal operation was only part of a LARGER campaign by Saddam over his time in power. Many now regard this as proof of genocide. Throughout the ethnic cleansing, which actually began when the Baathists first bullied their way into power in the early 60s and culminated in the Anfal, it is estimated that more than 4,000 villages in Kurdistan were destroyed and over 300,000 people perished.
"And I ain't saying that Saddam didn't commit crimes against humanity. I am simply saying that i don't believe he committed genocide because, again, Saddam hated any and everybody who opposed him"
It obviously hasn't occurred to you that the same thing can be said of Adolf Hitler - he also hated anyone who opposed or even offended him. He killed political prisoners, suspected spies, physically and mentally disabled people and homosexuals 'en masse'.
That DOESN'T mean that he didn't commit genocide against the Jews - the same can be said of Saddam and the Kurds.
Documentation recovered in 1991 Gulf War revealed that the Anfal operation was only part of a LARGER campaign by Saddam over his time in power. Many now regard this as proof of genocide. Throughout the ethnic cleansing, which actually began when the Baathists first bullied their way into power in the early 60s and culminated in the Anfal, it is estimated that more than 4,000 villages in Kurdistan were destroyed and over 300,000 people perished.
So there we have it from Bishop - Bishops logic.....
Adolf Hitler never committed genocide against the Jews because he also killed homosexuals, political opponents, others who challenged him, suspected spies and mentally and physically disabled people.
Likewise Saddam never committed genocide against the Kurds because he also kills political opponents, suspected spies, those who challenged him and anyone who offended him.
Bishop you really are an embarrassment for the anti-war crowd. Go hide in a hole now.
Adolf Hitler never committed genocide against the Jews because he also killed homosexuals, political opponents, others who challenged him, suspected spies and mentally and physically disabled people.
Likewise Saddam never committed genocide against the Kurds because he also kills political opponents, suspected spies, those who challenged him and anyone who offended him.
Bishop you really are an embarrassment for the anti-war crowd. Go hide in a hole now.
OC you are right, Bishop's logic is somewhat full of holes! As far as political prisoners go, Hitler imprisoned and killed mainly Communists and Social Democrats who opposed his fascist regime. Other 'categories' of those exterminated were POWs, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, German criminals, asocials and the "work-shy".
Saddam was far too similar to be true, he even used similar extermination methods!
I have read though that Stalin was Saddam's hero and like Stalin, he's going to end up a very sad man! But of course, Hitler and Saddam hated and killed anyone so they never committed genocide at all, eh Bishop?!
Saddam was far too similar to be true, he even used similar extermination methods!
I have read though that Stalin was Saddam's hero and like Stalin, he's going to end up a very sad man! But of course, Hitler and Saddam hated and killed anyone so they never committed genocide at all, eh Bishop?!
I will end this here (at leat my part). Dr. Imad's newest post (on Lebanon and Syria) is what we should be talking about. I do have to say, though, that the 3 stooges don't even read what i write. I said that i didn't consider Saddam's actions genocide "LIKE (i do) THE NAZIS WHEN THEY INVADED OTHER COUNTRIES TO KILL JEWS."...Did yall check that link out, i noticed no comment on any of that...and WHAT I LOVE THE MOST, since yall all seem to agree on what the UN says is the definition of genocide, is that when the UN (tried to) say, "wait, don't bomb Iraq yet - we'renot sure they have weapons," yall all said, "f@#! yall, they got 'em, we bombin'" But HERE, when it suits yall purpose, they are THE authority. It's just funny to me. Let's move on. It's been fun. I'm sure we will meet on another post.
Bishop don't they teach history in the US schools??
"THE NAZIS....INVADED OTHER COUNTRIES TO KILL JEWS".....
Simple minds don't 'arf simplify things!
FYI Bishop, Hitler, in theory/writings and practise, never settled on any set of particular principles. Nazi ideology was more complex than you think, in your ignorance. Nazi atrocities revolved not just around anti-Semitism, but also anti-communism, German expansionism, beliefs in better "Aryan race", and an twisted form of German nationalism.
Saddam never developed complex ideology as he was too intellectually challenged, just like the scientists and ministers who grovelled like cowed dogs at his feet. However, that didn't stop them from trying to wipe out the Kurds.
If its too difficult for you to grasp, come over to the UK and sit in a junior history class!
"THE NAZIS....INVADED OTHER COUNTRIES TO KILL JEWS".....
Simple minds don't 'arf simplify things!
FYI Bishop, Hitler, in theory/writings and practise, never settled on any set of particular principles. Nazi ideology was more complex than you think, in your ignorance. Nazi atrocities revolved not just around anti-Semitism, but also anti-communism, German expansionism, beliefs in better "Aryan race", and an twisted form of German nationalism.
Saddam never developed complex ideology as he was too intellectually challenged, just like the scientists and ministers who grovelled like cowed dogs at his feet. However, that didn't stop them from trying to wipe out the Kurds.
If its too difficult for you to grasp, come over to the UK and sit in a junior history class!
Bishop, you numpty, it's not a matter of the UN suiting our purpose when required.
If the Human Rights Watch, Middle East Watch, The Gendercide Watch, Web Genocide Documentation Centre, Campaign to End Genocide,and many anthropological Societies etc etc etc etc say its genocide, then, you've got it, It genocide!
Read "Iraq's Crime of Genocide" by the Human Rights and Middle east Watch
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If the Human Rights Watch, Middle East Watch, The Gendercide Watch, Web Genocide Documentation Centre, Campaign to End Genocide,and many anthropological Societies etc etc etc etc say its genocide, then, you've got it, It genocide!
Read "Iraq's Crime of Genocide" by the Human Rights and Middle east Watch
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