Free Iraq
The US's occupation of Iraq will see to it that the Lion of Babylon rises again .. سنـُبعـَث ُ من جَديد ، وإلى ضَـيـرِِهِـم
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| Unrevealed Milestones in the Iraqi National Nuclear Program: 1981-1991 | معالم وأحداث غير مكشوفة في البرنامج النووي الوطني العراقي 1981-1991 | 
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Friday, June 17, 2005
The 'Lying Mainstream Media'
"The Washington Post is reasserting its august judgment over what qualifies as news in the face of citizen complaints that it and other mainstream media outlets neglected leaked British memos about the deceptions behind George W. Bush’s war in Iraq.
The Post’s lead editorial on June 15 mixed a patronizing tone with derisive comments in assuring its readers that “the memos add not a single fact to what was previously known about the administration’s prewar deliberations. Not only that: They add nothing to what was publicly known in July 2002.” (emphasis added)
Oh, really?"
LMSM, the 'Lying Mainstream Media' June 17, 2005
"Six new secret British documents have been leaked and are provided below. These were retyped from the originals to protect the source, RawStory.com has verified the authenticity."
Bombshell As Six More British Documents Leaked June 14, 2005
An Update:
The OTHER ' Memos' from Downing Street and Pennsylvania Avenue June 18, 2005
"A SHARP increase in British and American bombing raids on Iraq in the run-up to war “to put pressure on the regime” was illegal under international law, according to leaked Foreign Office legal advice. The advice was first provided to senior ministers in March 2002. Two months later RAF and USAF jets began “spikes of activity” designed to goad Saddam Hussein into retaliating and giving the allies a pretext for war. The Foreign Office advice shows military action to pressurise the regime was “not consistent with” UN law, despite American claims that it was." British bombing raids were illegal, says Foreign Office June 19, 2005
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maybe if the media challenge the government they will end up like the bbc? they lost directors and journalists for telling the truth - plus a weapons inspector died. now they will reel the bbc in slowly and heaven help any weapons inspector who says something something unpopular.
death, job losses, ruined careers plus battered once-respected news corporation - tough price to pay for telling the truth.
i am stuck in house this weekend and bandaged and stitched up - could do with a few whiskies....:-(
death, job losses, ruined careers plus battered once-respected news corporation - tough price to pay for telling the truth.
i am stuck in house this weekend and bandaged and stitched up - could do with a few whiskies....:-(
"I would proffer that you most certainly can say the President has lied, if you meet one condition, that being he lied. It is a disservice to this country to have a media that either is protecting the President, or too scared to tell the truth."
"If we think of the process by which the [Downing Street] memos have come to generate headlines, however, we have to look at it as a learning process on the part of the public. If it took several dozen repetitions to get them to believe a lie, then it may take that many – and more – to show them the truth. And not just the truth about how they were lied to, either. Tim Cavanaugh may be right that they stopped caring about that a long time ago. However, when they find out who lied us into war, and why – when they discover that American girls and boys are dying and being horribly wounded in order to make life a little bit easier for the Israeli state, and specifically for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, I wonder if they'll begin to get a little hot under the collar. Particularly as our Justice Department rounds up a coven of Israeli spies in the Pentagon, and charges Israel's Washington lobbyists with espionage.
"Yes, a good deal of this is "old news" – but the Israeli connection is new. And if, as there's ample reason to believe, it can be shown that the Israelis fed us (via Chalabi and the Office of Special Plans) a stream of lies to rationalize a war to save their asses, the growing scandal that they were stealing our secrets blind and selling weapons to China all along may well provide the tipping point in the public's attitude toward the war – and toward our "special relationship" with Israel. "
"Yes, a good deal of this is "old news" – but the Israeli connection is new. And if, as there's ample reason to believe, it can be shown that the Israelis fed us (via Chalabi and the Office of Special Plans) a stream of lies to rationalize a war to save their asses, the growing scandal that they were stealing our secrets blind and selling weapons to China all along may well provide the tipping point in the public's attitude toward the war – and toward our "special relationship" with Israel. "
I cannot understand Israeli right wingers and the Jewish politicians who virtually rule Capitol Hill with iron rod. Only 60 years ago the Jewish people were being rounded up and exterminated by a frenetic and homicidal regime; now they [seemingly] want to inflict that same pain upon the Arabs. I cannot work out why this is. It seems that it is not just the US that has failed to learn from lessons of the past. Also the UK has not learned its lesson - it had its backside forcibly booted out of occupied countries such as India and now we find ourselves back in occupation mode? British men die for Israel - my mind boggles.
The media need to be brave and wake their public up from their coma.
They need to start educating at school on such issues
The media need to be brave and wake their public up from their coma.
They need to start educating at school on such issues
"But if Saddam's wickedness has to be the tuning fork against which all our own iniquities are judged, what does that say about us?" We are all complicit.
it is gone midnight here now but i cannot sleep - it is too hot!
i like to read Mr Fisk's articles, but i do not agree with Fisk's comments -'As long as we send men off to this physical hell... we are the torturers'...
..there are some things in life that the average person, Joe Bloggs on Acacia Avenue, can never control.
That lack of control does not equate to guilt or complicity.
people can pitch their vote at the elections, but it will not change the undercoat of their nations politics.
people can protest until they are blue in face, but as we saw from protests against Iraq invasion, it makes little difference..
Ignorance and apathy does not make one a torturer or rapist
i like to read Mr Fisk's articles, but i do not agree with Fisk's comments -'As long as we send men off to this physical hell... we are the torturers'...
..there are some things in life that the average person, Joe Bloggs on Acacia Avenue, can never control.
That lack of control does not equate to guilt or complicity.
people can pitch their vote at the elections, but it will not change the undercoat of their nations politics.
people can protest until they are blue in face, but as we saw from protests against Iraq invasion, it makes little difference..
Ignorance and apathy does not make one a torturer or rapist
Evelyn how many people have knowledge? As we know the mainstream media is censored and such things are not taught in schools.
Heidi
have a look what's happened in Spain.
The government went in Iraq against the wish of the ppl. It lied about the Madrid bombing and the real motive of the war. There was an huge protest . There was election and the new government put the spanish troop out of Iraq as the ppl wished.
This wasn't happened in UK.
have a look what's happened in Spain.
The government went in Iraq against the wish of the ppl. It lied about the Madrid bombing and the real motive of the war. There was an huge protest . There was election and the new government put the spanish troop out of Iraq as the ppl wished.
This wasn't happened in UK.
Stef firstly, it took several bombs and the massacre and injury of several hundred people to make them see any light at all. Do you want this in every country just so people will wake up?
The Spanish voted Aznar out because eventually, his policies cost them the lives of their own people. In my opinion, it is not because they cared for Iraq or Iraqi suffering.
The Americans weep when their own are killed, but when their weapons kill Palestinians and Iraqis it does not register because their minds to a degree are controlled and many have no education on issues in the middle east.
The underbelly of Spanish politics will not change just because Aznar is out. The Spanish government will also be complicit in sending people off to be tortured in foreign countries. You can vote out Aznar, but you cannot change the ugly undercoat of today's politics.
The Americans bombed the al Jazeera offices in Afghanistan and Iraq, and claimed it was a mistake (and pigs do fly...). Later the Spanish arrested al Jazeera correspondent at his home in Spain, accusing him of having links to al Qaeda after bin laden interview. As far as I know, he still rots in a small cell.
Numerous Western journalists, including Robert Fisk, have interviewed bin Laden and many other unsavoury people; yet none of them have been charged, arrested or imprisoned for links to terrorists. Were they even investigated??
The Spanish politicians are still as bad underneath.....they are still complicit...
The vote changed little at the fundamental level, thats my hypothesis!!!
The Spanish voted Aznar out because eventually, his policies cost them the lives of their own people. In my opinion, it is not because they cared for Iraq or Iraqi suffering.
The Americans weep when their own are killed, but when their weapons kill Palestinians and Iraqis it does not register because their minds to a degree are controlled and many have no education on issues in the middle east.
The underbelly of Spanish politics will not change just because Aznar is out. The Spanish government will also be complicit in sending people off to be tortured in foreign countries. You can vote out Aznar, but you cannot change the ugly undercoat of today's politics.
The Americans bombed the al Jazeera offices in Afghanistan and Iraq, and claimed it was a mistake (and pigs do fly...). Later the Spanish arrested al Jazeera correspondent at his home in Spain, accusing him of having links to al Qaeda after bin laden interview. As far as I know, he still rots in a small cell.
Numerous Western journalists, including Robert Fisk, have interviewed bin Laden and many other unsavoury people; yet none of them have been charged, arrested or imprisoned for links to terrorists. Were they even investigated??
The Spanish politicians are still as bad underneath.....they are still complicit...
The vote changed little at the fundamental level, thats my hypothesis!!!
Stefanie
The downfall of the Spanish Prime Minister did not result from the invasion of Iraq per se, or its protests. His downfall was the result of a tragedy in which innocent Spaniards suffered terribly. They took their revenge by voting him out.
The Spanish vote was all about avenging the deaths of Spaniards. It was not about avenging the invasion of Iraq.
Case in point: The Australian, British and American leaders all retained their seats because their public never had to face the consequences of their political foreign policies. In Spain, the chickens came home to roost and that is the difference.
The terrorists who planted those bombs knew only too well how the psyche of the average westerner works. They knew that hitting the ant formicary hard would be better than attacking the ant armies miles from home.
I know that if a similar incident happened in Britain just prior to the elections, Tony Blair would have been crushed too.
Blair got plain lucky this year in that he lacked any reasonable opponent. In addition to that, the Tory strategy during the election was badly planned.
I can say for certain that a change of government in most countries does not result in a great deal of change. Most political figures are out to feather their own nests, they are corrupt and fickle and will tell lies in order to get what they want.
People who vote are naive. They exchange liars for liars. They think they can change society by voting but in fact they only scratch the surface. They have no control or influence in the grand scale of things.
The downfall of the Spanish Prime Minister did not result from the invasion of Iraq per se, or its protests. His downfall was the result of a tragedy in which innocent Spaniards suffered terribly. They took their revenge by voting him out.
The Spanish vote was all about avenging the deaths of Spaniards. It was not about avenging the invasion of Iraq.
Case in point: The Australian, British and American leaders all retained their seats because their public never had to face the consequences of their political foreign policies. In Spain, the chickens came home to roost and that is the difference.
The terrorists who planted those bombs knew only too well how the psyche of the average westerner works. They knew that hitting the ant formicary hard would be better than attacking the ant armies miles from home.
I know that if a similar incident happened in Britain just prior to the elections, Tony Blair would have been crushed too.
Blair got plain lucky this year in that he lacked any reasonable opponent. In addition to that, the Tory strategy during the election was badly planned.
I can say for certain that a change of government in most countries does not result in a great deal of change. Most political figures are out to feather their own nests, they are corrupt and fickle and will tell lies in order to get what they want.
People who vote are naive. They exchange liars for liars. They think they can change society by voting but in fact they only scratch the surface. They have no control or influence in the grand scale of things.
The particular Fisk article deals with "rendition". If we have read the article (or others like it) we have "knowledge" of the unspeakable horror awaiting those "rendered". Likewise, many of us DO have knowledge about what is happening in Iraq, of the fate of Iraqis and the barbarism ordained by Mr. Bush and cohorts.
I submit that were OUR loved ones being "rendered", our imaginations might grow more fertile, our responses more proactive. Or, were our own sons and daughters suffering in this terrible morass, we, like Cindy Sheehan, would become active voices - at last. True, the media does not enlighten. True, our schools do not enlighten. True, we are encouraged to remain deaf and dumb.
Let us, however, remember the German response after WWII when confronted with the death camp realities: "We did not know." Do you believe it?
I submit that were OUR loved ones being "rendered", our imaginations might grow more fertile, our responses more proactive. Or, were our own sons and daughters suffering in this terrible morass, we, like Cindy Sheehan, would become active voices - at last. True, the media does not enlighten. True, our schools do not enlighten. True, we are encouraged to remain deaf and dumb.
Let us, however, remember the German response after WWII when confronted with the death camp realities: "We did not know." Do you believe it?
I will tell you how pathetic the UK and USA laws are! Soldiers who come back from Iraq after having tortured and raped are not even questioned.
However!
You squirt 10 cc of water at Tom Cruise's face and you will be arrested forthwith!
Plus, this little story and the Jackson trial occupies western minds more than a simple invasion and annhilation of a foreign country!
Go figure!
However!
You squirt 10 cc of water at Tom Cruise's face and you will be arrested forthwith!
Plus, this little story and the Jackson trial occupies western minds more than a simple invasion and annhilation of a foreign country!
Go figure!
Dear Evelyn
This is utter nonsense. It does not mean that the German public were directly responsible for the labour and death camps. They were not murderers. This is a very stupid asociation, and I would expect Fisk to write something more deserving of his talents.
By Fisk's reckoning, I am a torturer and murderer.
Who the hell is he to say that Joe Public should assume responsibilty? It is rather arrogant and only an intellectual snob would assert such things.
He is lucky, he is educated, he has lived in the middle east, he has seen war and is aware. Now look at average Joe Public who perhaps lives on a council estate, left school at 16, reads The Sun, watches British news and only goes to Spain for vacation. Is it realistic to expect him or her to understand what is going on at such political levels? Is it realistic to expect him to have any real control or influence on the fate of the Iraqi public?
Get a life
This is utter nonsense. It does not mean that the German public were directly responsible for the labour and death camps. They were not murderers. This is a very stupid asociation, and I would expect Fisk to write something more deserving of his talents.
By Fisk's reckoning, I am a torturer and murderer.
Who the hell is he to say that Joe Public should assume responsibilty? It is rather arrogant and only an intellectual snob would assert such things.
He is lucky, he is educated, he has lived in the middle east, he has seen war and is aware. Now look at average Joe Public who perhaps lives on a council estate, left school at 16, reads The Sun, watches British news and only goes to Spain for vacation. Is it realistic to expect him or her to understand what is going on at such political levels? Is it realistic to expect him to have any real control or influence on the fate of the Iraqi public?
Get a life
"Most Americans, together with the mainstream American media, are blind to the tell-tale signs of war, waiting, instead, for some formal declaration of hostility, a made-for-TV moment such as was witnessed on 19 March 2003." The US war with Iran has already begun
BR -
You are right: They were not DIRECTLY responsible. Nor are we. But in our silence, those of us who are NOT ignorant, lies our complicity. Yes, we are.
You are right: They were not DIRECTLY responsible. Nor are we. But in our silence, those of us who are NOT ignorant, lies our complicity. Yes, we are.
I am not agree when you said “it took several bombs and the massacre and injury of several hundred people to make them see any light at all” There were at least a huge protest from the spanish ppl like the UK ppl did befor the war , wich mean that the spanish ppl care about the life of the iraqi ppl and of course of then own ppl and they jut say “ this war is not our war”
There is no doubt that the Madrid bombing influenced many ppl.
But, is the war in Iraq have something to do with Ben Laden ? come on ...
The UK has the same opportunities of the Spain in the poll but who many of their political parties or the civil comunities claim for the end this war?
When you said “The Americans weep when their own are killed, but when their weapons kill Palestinians and Iraqis it does not register because their minds to a degree are controlled and many have no education on issues in the middle east.” Well Spain like some EU countries kown a lot about middle east customs simply because they just live with them. I wasn’t surprise when the Maroco community in Spain gave its help to find the Al Qaeda network afer the Madrid horror.
I kown that many US ppl do not have a clue about the middle east way of life. I had an alien resident card from US ( a green card) , I was 19 at the time and coming from France.
I was working in a restaurant at that time ( french=restaurant easy way ;-)) in US and most of the ppl asking me if I came to the US by car !!!!!
Yes the US have a big problem to know what’s going on outside of their country.
Education yes this is the main problem in the US.
“The Spanish government will also be complicit in sending people off to be tortured in foreign countries” I have no clue about it.
“The Americans bombed the al Jazeera offices in Afghanistan and Iraq, and claimed it was a mistake (and pigs do fly...). Later the Spanish arrested al Jazeera correspondent at his home in Spain, accusing him of having links to al Qaeda after bin laden interview. As far as I know, he still rots in a small cell”.
You know there is a lot of press agencies wich have been shut down during this war not only Al Jazeera . This war is actualy is the most deadly one for the press (humanly talking).
I do not a lot about this guy . But one thing I can tell you is this guy has a lawyer an he is not in gitmo. (torture...). The spanish judicial system is not in the hand of the executive power like the US does.
I believe in Democracy (mean a split power between executive power , legislative power , judicial power ) and when this doesn’t work I have the right and the duty to protest and not to obey , This is what I call “la désobéissance civile” I have been educated in such way.
There is no doubt that the Madrid bombing influenced many ppl.
But, is the war in Iraq have something to do with Ben Laden ? come on ...
The UK has the same opportunities of the Spain in the poll but who many of their political parties or the civil comunities claim for the end this war?
When you said “The Americans weep when their own are killed, but when their weapons kill Palestinians and Iraqis it does not register because their minds to a degree are controlled and many have no education on issues in the middle east.” Well Spain like some EU countries kown a lot about middle east customs simply because they just live with them. I wasn’t surprise when the Maroco community in Spain gave its help to find the Al Qaeda network afer the Madrid horror.
I kown that many US ppl do not have a clue about the middle east way of life. I had an alien resident card from US ( a green card) , I was 19 at the time and coming from France.
I was working in a restaurant at that time ( french=restaurant easy way ;-)) in US and most of the ppl asking me if I came to the US by car !!!!!
Yes the US have a big problem to know what’s going on outside of their country.
Education yes this is the main problem in the US.
“The Spanish government will also be complicit in sending people off to be tortured in foreign countries” I have no clue about it.
“The Americans bombed the al Jazeera offices in Afghanistan and Iraq, and claimed it was a mistake (and pigs do fly...). Later the Spanish arrested al Jazeera correspondent at his home in Spain, accusing him of having links to al Qaeda after bin laden interview. As far as I know, he still rots in a small cell”.
You know there is a lot of press agencies wich have been shut down during this war not only Al Jazeera . This war is actualy is the most deadly one for the press (humanly talking).
I do not a lot about this guy . But one thing I can tell you is this guy has a lawyer an he is not in gitmo. (torture...). The spanish judicial system is not in the hand of the executive power like the US does.
I believe in Democracy (mean a split power between executive power , legislative power , judicial power ) and when this doesn’t work I have the right and the duty to protest and not to obey , This is what I call “la désobéissance civile” I have been educated in such way.
The term "establishment press" is a Viet Nam war era term for what is now called MSM.
I'm not sure that MSM is any better.
I'm not sure that MSM is any better.
Stefanie
There were many protests in the UK, Australia and US too, but ultimately, Bush, Howard and Blair were voted back in. Things were different in Spain merely because of the Spanish loss of life and thats all, do not deceive yourself. You flatter the Spanish far too much by implying that they are different. Spain has one of the worst records in the world for animal cruelty. This hardly tells me that they are a nation of caring people. A nation and its society can be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable inhabitants.
As for the war protesters? What did they do other than lend Saddam moral support?
At the end of the day the Spanish troop withdrawal from Iraq made no difference. This means that the voting out of the PM made no difference to the issue the public protested on in the first place.
There were many protests in the UK, Australia and US too, but ultimately, Bush, Howard and Blair were voted back in. Things were different in Spain merely because of the Spanish loss of life and thats all, do not deceive yourself. You flatter the Spanish far too much by implying that they are different. Spain has one of the worst records in the world for animal cruelty. This hardly tells me that they are a nation of caring people. A nation and its society can be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable inhabitants.
As for the war protesters? What did they do other than lend Saddam moral support?
At the end of the day the Spanish troop withdrawal from Iraq made no difference. This means that the voting out of the PM made no difference to the issue the public protested on in the first place.
"I have the right and the duty to protest and not to obey"
You have the right of course, but you can make no difference ultimately
You have the right of course, but you can make no difference ultimately
Then Evelyn
Are the Iraqi people complicit in the torture, rape and murder of their own people under Saddam? 30 years of rule and not one real attempted coup? Every time a colleague failed to turn up for work, everyone wondered but no-one did anything? Face it, they were powerless.
If Blair was not in power, Michael Howard would have agreed with an assault on Iraq anyway. In fact, he stated that he would have done it sooner, likewise John Kerry.
Could they have planned it better? I doubt it. Go ahead and vote - exchange crap for crap
Are the Iraqi people complicit in the torture, rape and murder of their own people under Saddam? 30 years of rule and not one real attempted coup? Every time a colleague failed to turn up for work, everyone wondered but no-one did anything? Face it, they were powerless.
If Blair was not in power, Michael Howard would have agreed with an assault on Iraq anyway. In fact, he stated that he would have done it sooner, likewise John Kerry.
Could they have planned it better? I doubt it. Go ahead and vote - exchange crap for crap
BR -
Exchanging "crap for crap": agreed. My point, though, is not about the vote. No, not all Iraqis were complicit with respect to Saddam, not by any means. Nor were all Germans vis a vis the Gestapo. Nor are all Americans now.
Admittedly, we are greatly intimidated and constrained by the very real abuse of power that may be marshalled against us.
However, were we to overcome our fear in circumstances where we saw ourselves as having a vested interested (eg, having loved ones "rendered" or our own children hideously destroyed by war, or just plain caring sufficiently what happens to "others") we would discover voices within ourselves and possibilities for action previously unperceived.
Exchanging "crap for crap": agreed. My point, though, is not about the vote. No, not all Iraqis were complicit with respect to Saddam, not by any means. Nor were all Germans vis a vis the Gestapo. Nor are all Americans now.
Admittedly, we are greatly intimidated and constrained by the very real abuse of power that may be marshalled against us.
However, were we to overcome our fear in circumstances where we saw ourselves as having a vested interested (eg, having loved ones "rendered" or our own children hideously destroyed by war, or just plain caring sufficiently what happens to "others") we would discover voices within ourselves and possibilities for action previously unperceived.
and these
http://www.vinylfrontier.com/Photoshops/pinup-saddam.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/limericksavant/Saddam.jpg
http://www.hevanet.com/pnickell/saddam%20and%20the%20king.jpg
http://www.vinylfrontier.com/Photoshops/pinup-saddam.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/limericksavant/Saddam.jpg
http://www.hevanet.com/pnickell/saddam%20and%20the%20king.jpg
Mr Imad I sent your URL for inclusion BBC's weblog watch - Baghdad Burning is mentioned on there too but I do not like that much
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4111330.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4111330.stm
I stick with my view, if it were not for the train bombings, Aznar would have retained his leadership. The Spaniards are as narrow-minded and blinkered as the rest of the European nations. They are no special case.
BR, you are right about Spain having worst animal rights record in world.
"Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character; and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man." Arthur Schopenhauer
BR, you are right about Spain having worst animal rights record in world.
"Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character; and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man." Arthur Schopenhauer
Thank you, Heidi, for sending this Blog's URL to the BBC.
It is already mentioned here and here.
What would not you like about Riverbend's blog, pray tell?
It is already mentioned here and here.
What would not you like about Riverbend's blog, pray tell?
- 9,000 Americans dead in Operation "Iraqi Freedom"?
- 5,000 American military personnel deserted?
- To determine the truth, help wanted. (Forget about the MSN.)
- 5,000 American military personnel deserted?
- To determine the truth, help wanted. (Forget about the MSN.)
"If we can come to grips with whose fault it is that Bush is getting away with such hypocrisy, we're halfway home. Look in the mirror. Think about it."
Where in the MSN did you hear a Republican Senator say:
"Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse.
"The White House is completely disconnected from reality.
"It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq."
"Things aren't getting better, they're getting worse.
"The White House is completely disconnected from reality.
"It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq."
Mr Imad I will not read Baghdad Burning because I have information that the person who runs this blog may be real friend to Saddam and Ba'ath party. If this is the case then how can I accept her blog as being objective? Also, she does not identify herself, why is this? I am just suspicious of this person and her real reasons for blogging.
Evelyn it says "look in mirror"? I look in mirror and feel comfortable that I am not responsible for torture and death, either directly or indirectly; there are also millions like me. At the end of the day my influence and impact in the world is negligable and that can be said for millions of others.
I give you example; Bob Geldof and his famous colleagues has been fighting for African states for at least 20 years. He tried to deal with poverty and starvation. He organises events that raise millions and uses his status to raise awareness. The question is, has it changed anything? I do not think so. Many African states still have millions starving and are still ruled by corrupt fiends.
There is only so much we can change. Change has to start at the fundamental levels of politics and then move outwards to reach out to people. The very nature of politics and the politicians has to change.
I give you example; Bob Geldof and his famous colleagues has been fighting for African states for at least 20 years. He tried to deal with poverty and starvation. He organises events that raise millions and uses his status to raise awareness. The question is, has it changed anything? I do not think so. Many African states still have millions starving and are still ruled by corrupt fiends.
There is only so much we can change. Change has to start at the fundamental levels of politics and then move outwards to reach out to people. The very nature of politics and the politicians has to change.
Heidi -
I accept that millions and millions of ordinary caring people are convinced there is nothing more they possibly can do, that positive change must originate elsewhere. That position, however, is a choice. For our respective choices we each are individually responsible.
I accept that millions and millions of ordinary caring people are convinced there is nothing more they possibly can do, that positive change must originate elsewhere. That position, however, is a choice. For our respective choices we each are individually responsible.
Heidi
Re Riverbend.
By admitting that "she does not identify herself, why is this?"
Well, because it is dangerous in Baghdad for a vocal young female to be known as such (I know that you can never absorb this).
But the real bizzare statement, following the above admission, is closer to hillarious:
"I will not read Baghdad Burning because I have information that the person who runs this blog may be real friend to Saddam and Ba'ath party."
I would be really interested in knowing your source for this, especially when nobody knows who she is, except her family!
Clairvoyancy apart, starting her Blog at 24 (check her first posting) did not allow much for the intimacy that you imply.
I suspected that you may have a wierd reason. It is so way out of the mark, that it has boomranged unto you
Re Riverbend.
By admitting that "she does not identify herself, why is this?"
Well, because it is dangerous in Baghdad for a vocal young female to be known as such (I know that you can never absorb this).
But the real bizzare statement, following the above admission, is closer to hillarious:
"I will not read Baghdad Burning because I have information that the person who runs this blog may be real friend to Saddam and Ba'ath party."
I would be really interested in knowing your source for this, especially when nobody knows who she is, except her family!
Clairvoyancy apart, starting her Blog at 24 (check her first posting) did not allow much for the intimacy that you imply.
I suspected that you may have a wierd reason. It is so way out of the mark, that it has boomranged unto you
Heidi -
I'm wondering how much of Riverbend's blog you have read. If you seek to challenge the information you have been given, go to the beginning and read her first several entries. You will know why she blogs. Though we don't know her "identity", her personhood is very clear. Her writing gives a rich texture to Iraq and Iraqi life and traditions. And the barbarity of what we are doing to this nation becomes, for me, doubly alive.
Riverbend was 24 in August 2003 when she began blogging. Had she been Saddam's friend, she would have been a very young friend indeed! Read her entry of August 28, 2003. It will give you a clue about her political "loyalties". Likewise, so will many of her other entries. As for her anonymity, I can think of excellent reasons why an Iraqi writing from Iraq would make such a choice.
I know you addressed your concern to Dr. Khadduri, and I apologize for butting in.
I'm wondering how much of Riverbend's blog you have read. If you seek to challenge the information you have been given, go to the beginning and read her first several entries. You will know why she blogs. Though we don't know her "identity", her personhood is very clear. Her writing gives a rich texture to Iraq and Iraqi life and traditions. And the barbarity of what we are doing to this nation becomes, for me, doubly alive.
Riverbend was 24 in August 2003 when she began blogging. Had she been Saddam's friend, she would have been a very young friend indeed! Read her entry of August 28, 2003. It will give you a clue about her political "loyalties". Likewise, so will many of her other entries. As for her anonymity, I can think of excellent reasons why an Iraqi writing from Iraq would make such a choice.
I know you addressed your concern to Dr. Khadduri, and I apologize for butting in.
Evelyn, you right, I kindly request that you butt back out now. I never invited your opinion. Mind your manners next time.
I am not convinced by your arguments and I expected as much animosity when I posted. Who is Riverbend frightened of? Iraqis or the occupation forces? The answer may be of interest.
I am not entering into a conversation about the nature of this Riverbend person, or who my source is. I have read enough to be cautious. As for her connections to Saddam; I was referring to her older family members.
I am not convinced by your arguments and I expected as much animosity when I posted. Who is Riverbend frightened of? Iraqis or the occupation forces? The answer may be of interest.
I am not entering into a conversation about the nature of this Riverbend person, or who my source is. I have read enough to be cautious. As for her connections to Saddam; I was referring to her older family members.
Oh and to both of you, why so defensive over this Riverbend? Maybe the weird reasons actually rest with you both? You can't just rail-road your opinions over people either here or in the real world. If you don't agree with someone's opinion, maybe you could make an effort to at least elimnate the sarcasm. Remember it is lowest form of wit.
In "We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Downing Street Memo" Kurt Nimmo writes that doing a Google search on "Bush Iraq war planned" yields page after page of news articles from 1992 onward detailing the long-term plan to invade Iraq.
Do the search. You'll find 2,060,000 articles. Nimmo is right. The information has long been there. Forget the MSN.
Do the search. You'll find 2,060,000 articles. Nimmo is right. The information has long been there. Forget the MSN.
About the Germans and others reponsibility.
After WW2 the Allied forces made normal Germans to visit the concentration camps and so showed the Germans their collective responsibility and guilt. Also Israelis have demanded the Germans to “feel” guilty in as a nation and for generations in the future. Naturally a normal German with children had little options to resist the monstrous acts by their government. But in general Germans have been “demanded” to bare the guilt as a nation and all together. And most Germans have accepted that ”responsibility”.
The nowadays Americans and British citizens have a much better position to resist their leaders’ behaviour. Guantanamo Bay is not yet Dachau and FBI is not yet Gestapo, but on the way there.
Are Americans responsible of the monstrous acts made by US Army and CIA around the world? Naturally they are on the same criteria as Germans as a nation are responsible for WW2’s action. Johan Galtung has estimated the amount of dead by US actions after WW2 up to 12 - 16 million. http://www.transnational.org/forum/meet/2004/Galtung_USempireFall.html. So it is not a question of only Iraq and Abu Grahib, but Iraq helped people to realize better what USA has done for decades an how it has done the fight for “democracy and freedom” (= freedom for US companies and US strategic interests),
Not very long ago a US right wing professor said in a BBC interview that it would be right to torture the children of the suspected “terrorists” to avoid a new 911. This shows in a detail what has happened to the US moral. To avoid terrorism all human rules and basic morality are thrown out of the window.
After WW2 the Allied forces made normal Germans to visit the concentration camps and so showed the Germans their collective responsibility and guilt. Also Israelis have demanded the Germans to “feel” guilty in as a nation and for generations in the future. Naturally a normal German with children had little options to resist the monstrous acts by their government. But in general Germans have been “demanded” to bare the guilt as a nation and all together. And most Germans have accepted that ”responsibility”.
The nowadays Americans and British citizens have a much better position to resist their leaders’ behaviour. Guantanamo Bay is not yet Dachau and FBI is not yet Gestapo, but on the way there.
Are Americans responsible of the monstrous acts made by US Army and CIA around the world? Naturally they are on the same criteria as Germans as a nation are responsible for WW2’s action. Johan Galtung has estimated the amount of dead by US actions after WW2 up to 12 - 16 million. http://www.transnational.org/forum/meet/2004/Galtung_USempireFall.html. So it is not a question of only Iraq and Abu Grahib, but Iraq helped people to realize better what USA has done for decades an how it has done the fight for “democracy and freedom” (= freedom for US companies and US strategic interests),
Not very long ago a US right wing professor said in a BBC interview that it would be right to torture the children of the suspected “terrorists” to avoid a new 911. This shows in a detail what has happened to the US moral. To avoid terrorism all human rules and basic morality are thrown out of the window.
SimoH
I can safely say that Osama bin Laden has achieved his objective of belittling the American nation. He has exposed their Achilles Heels and shown us that in fact, the US is not all that it seems on the surface!
He has also achieved his objective of creating a polarized world.
I can safely say that Osama bin Laden has achieved his objective of belittling the American nation. He has exposed their Achilles Heels and shown us that in fact, the US is not all that it seems on the surface!
He has also achieved his objective of creating a polarized world.
Dr Khadduri
Re: Riverbend
I am into this post, mainly because I am a sworn enemy of this Riverbend. Seek out a blog called "Cry Me a Riverbend" to get an alternative view.
Dr Khadduri, how can you be so sure that "Heidi" is well "off the mark" about Riverbend?
You claim to know nothing about Riverbend,(as does Evelyn), so, you cannot surely define where the mark is, either of you. You cannot criticize her posts unless you know who Riverbend is, in this case you don't and as such, you are on extremely shakey ground, to say the least. It seems the boomerang has actually come back on you instead.
Evelyn you claim that Riverbend is 24 years of age and enlightening. Please tell me, do you believe everything she writes on her weblog? She is anonymous and hence I cannot see why you should take her at face value. Your trust is commendable but misguided.
Lastly, Dr Khadduri, I am amazed at your scornful and acidic attack on such a loyal visitor to your site. This only highlights a marked disrespect. I am shocked at your disrespectful response. If I was her, I would not frequent your site again
You say "because it is dangerous in Baghdad for a vocal young female to be known as such (I know that you can never absorb this)"
Why do you think this cannot be absorbed? Indeed, you will certainly not know what it is like to be a woman in Baghdad today will you?
In trying to shoot someone down in flames, you have instead shot yourself in the foot.
Respectfully
Rhubarb Rooter
Re: Riverbend
I am into this post, mainly because I am a sworn enemy of this Riverbend. Seek out a blog called "Cry Me a Riverbend" to get an alternative view.
Dr Khadduri, how can you be so sure that "Heidi" is well "off the mark" about Riverbend?
You claim to know nothing about Riverbend,(as does Evelyn), so, you cannot surely define where the mark is, either of you. You cannot criticize her posts unless you know who Riverbend is, in this case you don't and as such, you are on extremely shakey ground, to say the least. It seems the boomerang has actually come back on you instead.
Evelyn you claim that Riverbend is 24 years of age and enlightening. Please tell me, do you believe everything she writes on her weblog? She is anonymous and hence I cannot see why you should take her at face value. Your trust is commendable but misguided.
Lastly, Dr Khadduri, I am amazed at your scornful and acidic attack on such a loyal visitor to your site. This only highlights a marked disrespect. I am shocked at your disrespectful response. If I was her, I would not frequent your site again
You say "because it is dangerous in Baghdad for a vocal young female to be known as such (I know that you can never absorb this)"
Why do you think this cannot be absorbed? Indeed, you will certainly not know what it is like to be a woman in Baghdad today will you?
In trying to shoot someone down in flames, you have instead shot yourself in the foot.
Respectfully
Rhubarb Rooter
Evelyn
Re: "What we've lost"
You can provide links to as many Riverbend articles as you like. The fact is that she is hated on a grand scale, perhaps because many have worked out who she is? However, could it be that you are giving a megaphone to a privilegd former Baathist who revelled in her position whilst thousands died? Could it be that you are giving a megaphone to an unethical regime?
You call on everyone here to accept responsibility for the state of Iraq, well, I would suggest that your first port of call should be her. Afterall, the Baathists raped Iraq and its people for 30 years. Go now, pay her a visit.
Re: "What we've lost"
You can provide links to as many Riverbend articles as you like. The fact is that she is hated on a grand scale, perhaps because many have worked out who she is? However, could it be that you are giving a megaphone to a privilegd former Baathist who revelled in her position whilst thousands died? Could it be that you are giving a megaphone to an unethical regime?
You call on everyone here to accept responsibility for the state of Iraq, well, I would suggest that your first port of call should be her. Afterall, the Baathists raped Iraq and its people for 30 years. Go now, pay her a visit.
BREAKING NEWS FOLKS! I take it you have all seen the latest on Saddam Hussein, who still insists he is President of Iraq?
Quote
"Saddam was even said to be friendly towards his young guards, offering fatherly advice, and also developed a liking for foods from the country he once despised"
Amazing! What has he been giving advice on exactly? How to rape and beat up women? Or perhaps how to have whores sent you your offspring on a grand scale the night before his wedding? Or pehaps how to shoot Shia and Kurds and bury them alive?
As for his liking for American crisps? Hopefully one will choke him before he even gets to trial.
Quote
"Saddam was even said to be friendly towards his young guards, offering fatherly advice, and also developed a liking for foods from the country he once despised"
Amazing! What has he been giving advice on exactly? How to rape and beat up women? Or perhaps how to have whores sent you your offspring on a grand scale the night before his wedding? Or pehaps how to shoot Shia and Kurds and bury them alive?
As for his liking for American crisps? Hopefully one will choke him before he even gets to trial.
Rhubarb thank you for your support.
I have story to tell you; 5 years ago I was scuba diving in St Lucia in caribbean. They have beautiful coral reefs there and it is like paradise when one dives. It is large silent world where one is completely vulnerable.
Anyway, on my second off-shore dive, I came across a large innocuous-looking creature that, in my naivety, I reached out to touch. In return it bit me on my arm, creating a small gash. (I had to have antibiotics afterwards as precaution).
My diving instructor told me that by trying to make contact with the creature, which was in fact a moray eel, I had provoked it and as a result it took bite at me.
I learned lesson that day never to try to make contact with moray eel again. The eels response was over-the-top (to me), but at the same time the eel was just lashing out to protect itself. I held no grudge with the creature.
At least the moray eel actually knew what it was protecting, and why.
When I see this response from human beings though, who should know better, I get very suspicious and come to the conclusion that in such an injustified response, there is more to hide than meets the eye. In being unreasonably pompous, people make themselves look rather silly.
I have said enough now.
I have story to tell you; 5 years ago I was scuba diving in St Lucia in caribbean. They have beautiful coral reefs there and it is like paradise when one dives. It is large silent world where one is completely vulnerable.
Anyway, on my second off-shore dive, I came across a large innocuous-looking creature that, in my naivety, I reached out to touch. In return it bit me on my arm, creating a small gash. (I had to have antibiotics afterwards as precaution).
My diving instructor told me that by trying to make contact with the creature, which was in fact a moray eel, I had provoked it and as a result it took bite at me.
I learned lesson that day never to try to make contact with moray eel again. The eels response was over-the-top (to me), but at the same time the eel was just lashing out to protect itself. I held no grudge with the creature.
At least the moray eel actually knew what it was protecting, and why.
When I see this response from human beings though, who should know better, I get very suspicious and come to the conclusion that in such an injustified response, there is more to hide than meets the eye. In being unreasonably pompous, people make themselves look rather silly.
I have said enough now.
Rhubarb, Saddam apparently gave advice to soldiers on "keeping their girlfriends in line". I can just imagine what he told them. A good beating and the odd sexual assualt I am sure came into it.
I rarely give the American military credit for anything but I think this monstrous thug should feel lucky that they treat him so well!
I rarely give the American military credit for anything but I think this monstrous thug should feel lucky that they treat him so well!
Well I am still not agree that the spanish voted for Zapatero because the lost of life in the madrid bombing.If it will be the case the Pay Basque would be an independant state. The spanish lost more life by ETA bombing than Al Quaeda.
Aznard lost the election because he went in war against the wish of the ppl, he lied about the war and the bombing . In democraty ppl hates when their governement lied ( execpt in UK, USA and Australia)
Before the war there were Millions of spanish ( Zapatero included) against the war not to support Saddam but for the care of the iraqi ppl.
The withdraw of the spanish troop was a part of the political program of Zapatero before the bombing.
Am I saying that the Spanish are the best of the best? NO of course.
But for question about Iraq, I beleive they made the good choice.
I didn't get your point about the Spanish behave with animals and Iraq?
Are you saying that the iraqi ppl should know that they are killed, raped totured by countries who care about animals and not killed by ppl who doesnt?
Aznard lost the election because he went in war against the wish of the ppl, he lied about the war and the bombing . In democraty ppl hates when their governement lied ( execpt in UK, USA and Australia)
Before the war there were Millions of spanish ( Zapatero included) against the war not to support Saddam but for the care of the iraqi ppl.
The withdraw of the spanish troop was a part of the political program of Zapatero before the bombing.
Am I saying that the Spanish are the best of the best? NO of course.
But for question about Iraq, I beleive they made the good choice.
I didn't get your point about the Spanish behave with animals and Iraq?
Are you saying that the iraqi ppl should know that they are killed, raped totured by countries who care about animals and not killed by ppl who doesnt?
Stefanie
Your argument detailing the Basque case doesn't stand up at all and you are missing a vital point. Try to understand how human nature works.
In recent times, when have the Basques killed and injured hundreds of people in one swift swoop? Never. This is why the Spanish, and 10 Downing Street suspected a more organised and determined terrorist group from the first. The beast was of a different nature to the Basques.
There is something else for you to consider here. When people die in "dribs and drabs" it does not register much on public "distress-meters". However, when several hundred people are killed and injured in one go on home turf, just prior to an election, that changes the situation drastically. I think you underestimate the impact that the Madrid bombings had on the Spanish. Like I said, Blair, Howard and Bush have survived their elections because they evaded the attack that the Spanish suffered.
Also, don't assume that people care just because they protest. Many of these protestors have nothing else to do with their lives and feel a need to be self-righteous on issues such as this. It is just surface junk at the end of the day.
Your argument detailing the Basque case doesn't stand up at all and you are missing a vital point. Try to understand how human nature works.
In recent times, when have the Basques killed and injured hundreds of people in one swift swoop? Never. This is why the Spanish, and 10 Downing Street suspected a more organised and determined terrorist group from the first. The beast was of a different nature to the Basques.
There is something else for you to consider here. When people die in "dribs and drabs" it does not register much on public "distress-meters". However, when several hundred people are killed and injured in one go on home turf, just prior to an election, that changes the situation drastically. I think you underestimate the impact that the Madrid bombings had on the Spanish. Like I said, Blair, Howard and Bush have survived their elections because they evaded the attack that the Spanish suffered.
Also, don't assume that people care just because they protest. Many of these protestors have nothing else to do with their lives and feel a need to be self-righteous on issues such as this. It is just surface junk at the end of the day.
Heidi
If I were you, I would write Dr Khadduri an email to tick him off for this immature behaviour. You should also ask him why he reacted in such an uncouth fashion. Ask him to reciprocate the respect you had previously shown him. Maybe he will get off his high horse and apologise
If I were you, I would write Dr Khadduri an email to tick him off for this immature behaviour. You should also ask him why he reacted in such an uncouth fashion. Ask him to reciprocate the respect you had previously shown him. Maybe he will get off his high horse and apologise
"The Green Zone is a source of consternation and aggravation for the typical Iraqi. It makes us anxious because it symbolises the heart of the occupation and if fortifications and barricades are any indicator- the occupation is going to be here for a long time. It is a provocation because no matter how anyone tries to explain or justify it, it is like a slap in the face. It tells us that while we are citizens in our own country, our comings and goings are restricted because portions of the country no longer belong to its people. They belong to the people living in the Green Republic."
Brithanie
well I think you don't know very well the human nature or maybe you know an human nature wich is not the majority.
78 % of the spanish voters said that the Madrid bombing had no influence This is why terrorist (ETA,IRA,AL Quadea...) can never win what ever their goal.
The Spanish ppl voted for Zapatero because he is against this war like 90 % of the spanish and Aznard was a liar even if Aznard had a good result in economy.
Now saying that the Millions of protestors in Spain are just a bunch of ppl which have noting to do with their life is a kind of insult to them. It's maybe the case in UK but when you have millions of ppl it should mean someting to the government. In France with this huge amount of ppl, the government had to take care of it simply because the right to protest is writing in our constitution.
Different cultur probably.
well I think you don't know very well the human nature or maybe you know an human nature wich is not the majority.
78 % of the spanish voters said that the Madrid bombing had no influence This is why terrorist (ETA,IRA,AL Quadea...) can never win what ever their goal.
The Spanish ppl voted for Zapatero because he is against this war like 90 % of the spanish and Aznard was a liar even if Aznard had a good result in economy.
Now saying that the Millions of protestors in Spain are just a bunch of ppl which have noting to do with their life is a kind of insult to them. It's maybe the case in UK but when you have millions of ppl it should mean someting to the government. In France with this huge amount of ppl, the government had to take care of it simply because the right to protest is writing in our constitution.
Different cultur probably.
(In response to a prior comment)
George Monbiot: "Far from challenging the G8's role in Africa's poverty, Geldof and Bono are giving legitimacy to those responsible"
George Monbiot: "Far from challenging the G8's role in Africa's poverty, Geldof and Bono are giving legitimacy to those responsible"
British Rhubarb
You say:
“I can safely say that Osama bin Laden has achieved his objective of belittling the American nation. He has exposed their Achilles Heels and shown us that in fact, the US is not all that it seems on the surface!
He has also achieved his objective of creating a polarized world.”
Has Osaman created a polarized world, or has US done it self? 911 united the world but then USA divided it again. The unnecessary war against Iraq, which had nothing to do with “terrorist hunting”. USA openly has declared its lust for world domination. Certainly that is not what people in Peking, Delhi, Berlin, Teheran or Moscow want or will let happen.
What do we westerners really know about Saddam Hussein? There has been a one-sided propaganda war for decades telling more or less “horrible” stories about the gentleman. How many of those stories planted in the western press were actually true? The best way to find the truth would be to put Saddam in the International War Crime Tribunal. Now when Saddam is trialled by his old political domestic and international enemies, there can be only one outcome if Saddam ever lives until the trial. The enemies have already declared their “truth” and can not “change” it. It is simply impossible for them.
More interesting than the gossips of US guard boys, is the news from today: Iraqi minister: U.S. hiding Saddam secrets
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2005/06/21/1097901-ap.html.
In the article the Iraqi Justice Minister Abdel Hussein Shandal says:
Shandal alleged that U.S. officials deliberately are trying to limit access to Saddam because they have their own secrets to protect, including funnelling money and support to Iraqi leader during his rule.
Well, well Justice Minister saying that - interesting. Certainly Saddam is no humanist, but is he a mass murderer like the “great dictators” in history. No, a local medium weight despot. If Saddam is considered to be responsible for the Iraqis killed during Iran wars and during the rebellions, so should Bush (and Clinton, Bush Sr and Reagan) be considered responsible for the uncalculated amount of dead Iraqis and others. Let’s not forget who financed and contributed to the Iran war and who where responsible for the uprisings after Gulf War one. Saddam can’t escape his responsibility, but can the USA president who misled his nation to war and which has killed countless people. Well we will see that in the future.
You say:
“I can safely say that Osama bin Laden has achieved his objective of belittling the American nation. He has exposed their Achilles Heels and shown us that in fact, the US is not all that it seems on the surface!
He has also achieved his objective of creating a polarized world.”
Has Osaman created a polarized world, or has US done it self? 911 united the world but then USA divided it again. The unnecessary war against Iraq, which had nothing to do with “terrorist hunting”. USA openly has declared its lust for world domination. Certainly that is not what people in Peking, Delhi, Berlin, Teheran or Moscow want or will let happen.
What do we westerners really know about Saddam Hussein? There has been a one-sided propaganda war for decades telling more or less “horrible” stories about the gentleman. How many of those stories planted in the western press were actually true? The best way to find the truth would be to put Saddam in the International War Crime Tribunal. Now when Saddam is trialled by his old political domestic and international enemies, there can be only one outcome if Saddam ever lives until the trial. The enemies have already declared their “truth” and can not “change” it. It is simply impossible for them.
More interesting than the gossips of US guard boys, is the news from today: Iraqi minister: U.S. hiding Saddam secrets
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2005/06/21/1097901-ap.html.
In the article the Iraqi Justice Minister Abdel Hussein Shandal says:
Shandal alleged that U.S. officials deliberately are trying to limit access to Saddam because they have their own secrets to protect, including funnelling money and support to Iraqi leader during his rule.
Well, well Justice Minister saying that - interesting. Certainly Saddam is no humanist, but is he a mass murderer like the “great dictators” in history. No, a local medium weight despot. If Saddam is considered to be responsible for the Iraqis killed during Iran wars and during the rebellions, so should Bush (and Clinton, Bush Sr and Reagan) be considered responsible for the uncalculated amount of dead Iraqis and others. Let’s not forget who financed and contributed to the Iran war and who where responsible for the uprisings after Gulf War one. Saddam can’t escape his responsibility, but can the USA president who misled his nation to war and which has killed countless people. Well we will see that in the future.
"Africa's imperial plunder and tragedy have been turned into a circus for the benefit of the so-called G8 leaders due in Scotland next month and those of us willing to be distracted by the barkers of the circus: the establishment media and its 'celebrities'. The illusion of an anti establishment crusade led by pop stars - a cultivated, controlling image of rebellion - serves to dilute a great political movement of anger."
SimoHurtta-
Thank you indeed for the perspective of your Saddam comment. Bush & Co (and a whole lot of others) will do all in their power to block anything even vaguely resembling a fair trial.
Thank you indeed for the perspective of your Saddam comment. Bush & Co (and a whole lot of others) will do all in their power to block anything even vaguely resembling a fair trial.
". . . the corporate media is resisting outing Bush and Crew for what they are — war criminals who should be on the next plane to The Hague."
AN INVITATION FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (seriously):
"I think about Iraq every day -- every single day -- . . .And so, you know, I think about this every day, every single day, and will continue thinking about it, . . .those of us who espouse freedom have an obligation, and those who espouse human rights have an obligation to live that to those -- live up to those words. And I believe we are, in Guantanamo. . . . You're welcome to go down yourself -- maybe you have -- and taking a look at the conditions. I urge members of our press corps to go down to Guantanamo and see how they're treated and to see -- and to see -- and to look at the facts. That's all I ask people to do. . . . And -- but if you've got questions about Guantanamo, I seriously suggest you go down there and take a look. And -- seriously, take an objective look as to how these folks are treated . . ."
"I think about Iraq every day -- every single day -- . . .And so, you know, I think about this every day, every single day, and will continue thinking about it, . . .those of us who espouse freedom have an obligation, and those who espouse human rights have an obligation to live that to those -- live up to those words. And I believe we are, in Guantanamo. . . . You're welcome to go down yourself -- maybe you have -- and taking a look at the conditions. I urge members of our press corps to go down to Guantanamo and see how they're treated and to see -- and to see -- and to look at the facts. That's all I ask people to do. . . . And -- but if you've got questions about Guantanamo, I seriously suggest you go down there and take a look. And -- seriously, take an objective look as to how these folks are treated . . ."
Iraq's Justice Minister: U.S. officials are trying to delay interrogations of Saddam Hussein.
“There . . . are secrets that if revealed, won’t be in the interest of many countries,” he said. “Who was helping Saddam all those years?”
“There . . . are secrets that if revealed, won’t be in the interest of many countries,” he said. “Who was helping Saddam all those years?”
I really nice video of Amy, if you can it's a nice download. Just a little more about the US media, Video of: Un-Embed the Media! Tour Launch (2005-03-28)
A WBAI fundraiser hosted By WBAI's Bernard White and Democracy Now!'s Jeremy Scahill
Marking the launch of the paperback edition of Amy and David Goodman's national best-seller, The Exception to the Rulers: Exposing Oily Politicians, War Profiteers, and the Media That Love Them.
Monday, March 28, the Ethical Culture Society, New York, NY
http://www.archive.org/details/dn-unembedding-tour-launch
A WBAI fundraiser hosted By WBAI's Bernard White and Democracy Now!'s Jeremy Scahill
Marking the launch of the paperback edition of Amy and David Goodman's national best-seller, The Exception to the Rulers: Exposing Oily Politicians, War Profiteers, and the Media That Love Them.
Monday, March 28, the Ethical Culture Society, New York, NY
http://www.archive.org/details/dn-unembedding-tour-launch
The Most Cowardly War in History: " . . . a war in which international institutions were used to force a country to disarm and then stood by while it was attacked with a greater array of weapons than has ever been used in the history of war."
" . . . we must not forget that when Saddam Hussein was committing his worst crimes, the US government was supporting him politically and materially. When he was gassing Kurdish people, the US government financed him, armed him, and stood by silently.
"Saddam Hussein is being tried as a war criminal even as we speak. But what about those who helped to install him in power, who armed him, who supported him - and who are now setting up a tribunal to try him and absolve themselves completely?"
" . . . we must not forget that when Saddam Hussein was committing his worst crimes, the US government was supporting him politically and materially. When he was gassing Kurdish people, the US government financed him, armed him, and stood by silently.
"Saddam Hussein is being tried as a war criminal even as we speak. But what about those who helped to install him in power, who armed him, who supported him - and who are now setting up a tribunal to try him and absolve themselves completely?"
Evelyn
Why are you so concerned about Saddam getting a fair trial? I have seen you refer to this many times now. Why the interest in his well-being?
The US is treating him far too well as it is. He gets cigars, favourite breakfast cereal and crisps and other favourite foods. He is getting a more staple and luxurious diet than many good, honest but poor people I know in the UK. He looks physically fitter than at any other time I have seen him on TV in recent years.
I presume this is evidence of the US is treating him badly eh?!
Saddam does not deserve this treatment and he does not deserve a fair trial either. As one Kurdish woman recently said "I want to tear the flesh from his bones with my teeth".
They should make every living day a nightmare for this low-life subnormal cretin. They should beat him, torture him and terrorize him on every available occasion until he succumbs to the inevitable.
Why are you so concerned about Saddam getting a fair trial? I have seen you refer to this many times now. Why the interest in his well-being?
The US is treating him far too well as it is. He gets cigars, favourite breakfast cereal and crisps and other favourite foods. He is getting a more staple and luxurious diet than many good, honest but poor people I know in the UK. He looks physically fitter than at any other time I have seen him on TV in recent years.
I presume this is evidence of the US is treating him badly eh?!
Saddam does not deserve this treatment and he does not deserve a fair trial either. As one Kurdish woman recently said "I want to tear the flesh from his bones with my teeth".
They should make every living day a nightmare for this low-life subnormal cretin. They should beat him, torture him and terrorize him on every available occasion until he succumbs to the inevitable.
Evelyn
"When he was gassing Kurdish people, the US government financed him, armed him, and stood by silently"
Lets be realistic here, this is not really the whole picture, mainly because only a tiny percentage of Saddam's weapons imports were from American suppliers. The huge bulk came from countries such as the USSR, France and China. This is well documented. Russia and France did not support the invasion merely based on their own self-interests, it has/had nothing to do with care for Iraq.
I am not supporting the US policies in any way, but that does not preclude me from having a balanced perspective.
"When he was gassing Kurdish people, the US government financed him, armed him, and stood by silently"
Lets be realistic here, this is not really the whole picture, mainly because only a tiny percentage of Saddam's weapons imports were from American suppliers. The huge bulk came from countries such as the USSR, France and China. This is well documented. Russia and France did not support the invasion merely based on their own self-interests, it has/had nothing to do with care for Iraq.
I am not supporting the US policies in any way, but that does not preclude me from having a balanced perspective.
Mr Simohurta
The fact that you have just referred to Saddam Hussein as a "gentleman" highlights where your sympathies lie.
Since when did "gentlemen" put women and children in mass graves? Have them raped? Have them tortured?
Mass graves, torture rooms and rape rooms were a stark reality, not propaganda.
You sound like Jude Wanniski....Saddam is such a wonderful man....
The fact that you have just referred to Saddam Hussein as a "gentleman" highlights where your sympathies lie.
Since when did "gentlemen" put women and children in mass graves? Have them raped? Have them tortured?
Mass graves, torture rooms and rape rooms were a stark reality, not propaganda.
You sound like Jude Wanniski....Saddam is such a wonderful man....
Well if you Brittish rhubarb consider President Bush and Prime Minister Blair as gentlemen so is Saddam. Blair and Bush tricked their democratic nations to war by fixing intelligence and spreading lies. This war has claimed an astronomic amount of dead people and these gentlemen do not even bother to count the dead Iraqis.
My original point was that is said of Saddam really true or fiction planted by CIA. To make my mind I would prefer a impartial trial, which would include the Iraq-Iran wars and US role in that. The sad thing that US doesn’t want that. Like all human beings Saddam and his administration have a right to a fair trial. Like Bush and Blair will hopefully have in future.
I am no fan of Saddam or any other despot - including G. Bush. Josef Stalin decided in 1939 to "liberate" my nation, so we have some understanding about how Iraqis feel when a super power decideds to "liberate" a nation with MILITARY FORCE.
My original point was that is said of Saddam really true or fiction planted by CIA. To make my mind I would prefer a impartial trial, which would include the Iraq-Iran wars and US role in that. The sad thing that US doesn’t want that. Like all human beings Saddam and his administration have a right to a fair trial. Like Bush and Blair will hopefully have in future.
I am no fan of Saddam or any other despot - including G. Bush. Josef Stalin decided in 1939 to "liberate" my nation, so we have some understanding about how Iraqis feel when a super power decideds to "liberate" a nation with MILITARY FORCE.
Simohurta
Please find one message that I have posted where I have referred to Blair or Bush as gentlemen. You will find this task impossible, guaranteed. Unless you are putting words in my mouth?
Also, I have never voiced support for their policies abroad. Unless you put words in my mouth?
As I said, mass graves and torture chambers are not fictional, they are real. You need to listen more to Iraqis that have fled their country in sheer terror
Please find one message that I have posted where I have referred to Blair or Bush as gentlemen. You will find this task impossible, guaranteed. Unless you are putting words in my mouth?
Also, I have never voiced support for their policies abroad. Unless you put words in my mouth?
As I said, mass graves and torture chambers are not fictional, they are real. You need to listen more to Iraqis that have fled their country in sheer terror
Stef,
Sorry I have just seen your message.
You should know that opinion polls cannot be trusted, plus any public is very fickle in nature.
Polls can be skewed for many reasons and just a few are here,
1. An inadequate number of persons maybe sampled.
2. The individuals polled did not include a representative sample of the population. Results are unreliable if they involve persons whose ages, religious beliefs, gender, race, nationality, etc. are atypical.
3. Loaded questions are asked.
4. The answers are not completely thought out.
5. Confusing terminology is used.
Also, the results of such polls are always swayed by psychological deceptions and projections of some kind.
Any Spanish person who claims they were not influenced by a mass bombing of their own people 24 hours before an election is deceiving themselves or just projecting the image they want.
Maybe they feel it is more honourable to project an outward image of care for Iraq? Roman catholics afterall feel they must at least project the morally righteous aspects of themselves.
I seem to remember Saddam getting 99.9% of the Iraqi vote in 2002. Did you believe that?
Sorry I have just seen your message.
You should know that opinion polls cannot be trusted, plus any public is very fickle in nature.
Polls can be skewed for many reasons and just a few are here,
1. An inadequate number of persons maybe sampled.
2. The individuals polled did not include a representative sample of the population. Results are unreliable if they involve persons whose ages, religious beliefs, gender, race, nationality, etc. are atypical.
3. Loaded questions are asked.
4. The answers are not completely thought out.
5. Confusing terminology is used.
Also, the results of such polls are always swayed by psychological deceptions and projections of some kind.
Any Spanish person who claims they were not influenced by a mass bombing of their own people 24 hours before an election is deceiving themselves or just projecting the image they want.
Maybe they feel it is more honourable to project an outward image of care for Iraq? Roman catholics afterall feel they must at least project the morally righteous aspects of themselves.
I seem to remember Saddam getting 99.9% of the Iraqi vote in 2002. Did you believe that?
Simo
Again, you put words in my mouth. I am aware that US foreign policy has eventually contributed to a divided world. However, 9/11 was very cathartic and in my mind, Osama BL took advantage and got what he wanted. He used the US's own weakness against itself so it would become hated. This has happened without a doubt.
Again, you put words in my mouth. I am aware that US foreign policy has eventually contributed to a divided world. However, 9/11 was very cathartic and in my mind, Osama BL took advantage and got what he wanted. He used the US's own weakness against itself so it would become hated. This has happened without a doubt.
Well Rhubarb. I said IF you CONSIDER. If means if. If you do not consider Bush and Blair as gentlemen it is OK for me.
One of the most amusing phrases is in the Bush’s Iraq mythology is the rape room. What is a rape room? A specialized room with beds and tables to perform raping or what? Sick people make fantasies of the Iraqi rape rooms. How many times Bush has mentioned Rape Rooms in his propaganda? Saddam is accused for all the raping in Iraq – funny. Well how many women and men have Americans raped in Iraq? Certainly hundreds. Naturally with equal moral standards Bush is to be blamed for them.
The torture chambers and mass graves. Certainly there was them, but so do they exist in ALL the countries in the region and in USA. Most of the bodies in the mass graves in Iraq have been killed during the uprisings encouraged and organized by USA. By the way USA is full of mass graves of the Native Americans.
Certainly Saddam was no human dictator, but the essential point is that have Bush and Blair any moral authority to accuse him? In my mind no. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Grahib etc. hidden torture chambers and rape rooms take on part of that moral authority and the unnecessary killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis the rest. By the way the dead Iraqis are buried in graves. 100 000 make a big mass grave. And that mass grave is also a reality.
In your own words a little analogy:
Bush does not deserve good treatment and he does not deserve a fair trial either. As one American woman who recently lost his son in Iraq said "I want to tear the flesh from his bones with my teeth".
They should make every living day a nightmare for this low-life subnormal cretin. They should beat him, torture him and terrorize him on every available occasion until he succumbs to the inevitable.
Post a Comment
One of the most amusing phrases is in the Bush’s Iraq mythology is the rape room. What is a rape room? A specialized room with beds and tables to perform raping or what? Sick people make fantasies of the Iraqi rape rooms. How many times Bush has mentioned Rape Rooms in his propaganda? Saddam is accused for all the raping in Iraq – funny. Well how many women and men have Americans raped in Iraq? Certainly hundreds. Naturally with equal moral standards Bush is to be blamed for them.
The torture chambers and mass graves. Certainly there was them, but so do they exist in ALL the countries in the region and in USA. Most of the bodies in the mass graves in Iraq have been killed during the uprisings encouraged and organized by USA. By the way USA is full of mass graves of the Native Americans.
Certainly Saddam was no human dictator, but the essential point is that have Bush and Blair any moral authority to accuse him? In my mind no. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Grahib etc. hidden torture chambers and rape rooms take on part of that moral authority and the unnecessary killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis the rest. By the way the dead Iraqis are buried in graves. 100 000 make a big mass grave. And that mass grave is also a reality.
In your own words a little analogy:
Bush does not deserve good treatment and he does not deserve a fair trial either. As one American woman who recently lost his son in Iraq said "I want to tear the flesh from his bones with my teeth".
They should make every living day a nightmare for this low-life subnormal cretin. They should beat him, torture him and terrorize him on every available occasion until he succumbs to the inevitable.
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